Waxing and wailing
Monday, Apr 4, 2005
I think God has a sense of humor.
Yesterday I waxed eloquent on my conviction that the Church not exclude children from “adult” worship services. I made my case. I quoted Bible verses and backed my argument with personal anecdotes and Biblical precedent. So well, that the poor soul listening didn’t even put up a fight.
I think she just wanted to get away from me.
So this morning at church, Model Family files in and I beam inwardly with maternal pride as I peek sideways at my five-year-old singing her heart out, standing on the pew. My kids bow for prayer, and they stand tall for the Scripture. I’m thinking that it’s going to be a good day.
So, Model Family passes the communion tray down the pew, and the Pastor recites, “This is My body, broken for you…” The congregation waits in silence, and Baby Energizer lurches forward and bangs her mouth on the pew in front of us.
It was one of those cries that has The Pause Before The Wail.
My husband hurried out, almost making it through the door before the siren went off.
He had to pass the same folks that we disrupted last week during the Pastor’s Easter sermon punch line. Baby Energizer likes lurching.
I looked around for yesterday’s recipient of my dissertation, and I didn’t see her.
Whew. Didn’t want a wrinkle in my argument. ;)
22 Comments
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Your writing is as funny as ever, but your new site is absolutely fabulous–a huge improvement over blogger. I love the clothes line hanging at the top of your blog! This is just beautiful, Amy.
Comment by Dogwood Blue (April 4, 2005 @ 6:23 am )
You gave me a good laugh with this one, Amy.
OH! How I can relate!
Comment by Valerie BBG (April 4, 2005 @ 6:33 am )
I have had such a fight in my church as well, and lost. As it turns out, “model family” no longer shows up to our church and it is the persistance of two families that has caused “kids’s church” not to die.
Here is the article I was using to contest kid’s church, and it was written by a youth pastor. Hmm, perhaps I should suggest a summer break from kid’s church…
Comment by Doug (April 4, 2005 @ 6:44 am )
Amy!
I love it! Congratulations! You go girl!
Comment by Holly (April 4, 2005 @ 8:39 am )
Mercy Maud, does that bring back memories of taking my toddlers to church. =8^0
Love the new blog site, BTW!
Comment by Anne in Ft. Worth (April 4, 2005 @ 8:47 am )
In my church adventure yesterday, I departed due to my young one’s persistent cries of “MA MA” getting louder and louder as the Pastor made his sermon points.
They already have that timing thing down. He was quiet as a church mouse during the music part…
I think he’s just practicing for a future career….
Comment by Sal (April 4, 2005 @ 8:59 am )
Amy - The new site is fabulous! I love the clothesline! And I totally identified with your post. We’re in the process of switching churches (which I’m unhappy about, but that’s a whole other thing) and we’ve started keeping our little ones in the service with us. People look at us like we’re nuts, but it’s actually going pretty well. Most of the time:)
Comment by Shannon Miller (April 4, 2005 @ 10:34 am )
Amy, I had a similar experience in church yesterday, so it cracked me up to read yours! During communion my 7 mo old was on my lap, playing quietly with his toes. I bowed my head to pray and he threw his back at just that moment and hit right on the bridge of my nose. It was one of those awful cracking sounds inside my head, which I’m sure must have been audible three rows back. I made the dash for the door just before he started wailing. Thankfully, I was able to restrain my own reaction to a low groan. =)
Your new site looks great! Thanks for sharing yourself with us.
Blessings,
Comment by Brenda on the S OR Coast (April 4, 2005 @ 10:58 am )
Good lookin’ site, Amy, but where did the Betty Boop girl go??? (Kristen got her way, after all)… *grin*
Great post. Had a similar experience myself yesterday w/ my 18 month old, during the Lord’s Supper, but I had to have them all come out of the service with me, since Jeff is up front (and I don’t trust the 3 year old boy to sit still if I’m not there…and if I’m taking him, why not the girls too?). Some day I’m going to actually sit down and TAKE the Lord’s Supper. For now, I’m just living it. *grin*
Comment by Molly (April 4, 2005 @ 1:03 pm )
Amy,
I did not see your link with useful bible verses about children in “Adult” services, but would like to. I’m sure you know my feelings on the subject already.
Love the new site!!!
Comment by Todd (April 4, 2005 @ 1:37 pm )
Todd,
In Deut. 31:12-13 “Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law…
Also, let us remember Jesus’ words to the disciples when they wanted to keep the children away: “Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.’”
In light of these texts, forbiding children from “adult” worship is just doesn’t hold water. My covenant children are citizens of the kingdom as well, part of the coorporate Church. They deserve a spot amoung God’s coorporate people, that they may hear and learn to fear the Lord.
Besides, we worship as a family Monday - Saturday. It just doesn’t seem right not to worship together on Sunday.
I’m not saying that everyone needs to bring their children in the service if they don’t desire this. I can understand their perspective.
What I can not understand are churches that forbid the children. I know you attend a church that does this, Todd. Please forgive me if I’m offending you. I like you, but I believe the case is upon those who forbid children to prove their case Scripturally, not the other way around.
And to think that I was thinking I had posted a non-controversial post for my first day on the new site! Sometimes I’m a little slow on the draw…
Blessings to you, Todd,
Amy
Comment by Amy (April 4, 2005 @ 2:51 pm )
I brought my 3 year old to a youth camp at which she had a baby sitter but wanted to be in worship. As a pastor friend of my retorically asked “Do we want God angry at us?” my 3 year old shouted from the back, “NO!”.
I will still bring her to church occasionally regardless of organized experience. She does have a class at the same time. But I think that if we are to come to the Lord as little children, we should occasionally see their approach.
Comment by Paula (April 4, 2005 @ 3:55 pm )
Amy,
Ultimately, I think it depends on the teaching, verse by verse is tough to follow when children are crying or fidgeting right in front of you. It is up to each of us to decide which is the right church based on the criteria we as parents have set.
That said, (and I am saying this smiling because I truly do like you and Greg), Calvary Chapel does not allow children under 6 in the adult service for the reasons you and so many above highlight. It can be disruptive to the study, in the same way cell phones can be disruptive.
The biblical quotes you make to support your view are not relevant. Jesus taught in the synegogues, where it was only men as women were not allowed in the “service”. The reference to Jesus speaking to the disciples about the children, was when he was teaching the thousands, not in a “church”.
Todd
Comment by Todd (April 4, 2005 @ 5:12 pm )
awww hope your baby is ok now, I think it’s important that our children learning about praise & worship during church, it’s so neat when the kids join in or like when I heard my youngest singing his heart out the other day in his room “glory glory, hallelujah he reigns…”. btw I love your new look here, hope you don’t mine if I linked to you at my blog.
Comment by Aimz (April 4, 2005 @ 6:40 pm )
Our church pretty much does what Molly’s does–children with everyone else during singing, then they go to classes with their age group. I don’t know how I’d feel if I had children. I know the kids enjoy the classes, and the adults at BHC take the job of teaching them VERY seriously. But I see what you’re saying, too, Amy. I wouldn’t feel comfortable if my child’s presence were forbidden.
Comment by Kristen (April 4, 2005 @ 6:59 pm )
The Church I grew up did pretty much the same thing as Molly’s. But they also had “Family Worship Sundays” once a month. The kids would stay the whole time.
PS Love the new digs! The clothesline is cool. I kinda miss the “Throughly deliberate (sp?). . .” quote though.
Comment by Kristy (April 4, 2005 @ 9:36 pm )
The new church we’re attending offers a nursery and children’s church for 4 year olds and younger. Everyone over 4 is in the regular service. I really enjoy having our kiddies with us for worship, but I doubt I’ve heard a whole sermon since sissy was born 9 months ago (counting the morning sickness we could probably safely say 18 months!).
Comment by Shannon Miller (April 4, 2005 @ 11:18 pm )
Actually, I’ve been at the remains of the temple in Jerusalem, adjacent to the Wailing Wall. The women’s and children’s area is situated a little to the left and above the men’s area. I stood and watched a Bar Mitzvah there. It is not seperate, just seperated by a little metal screen and a little height, but the noise surely wouldn’t be seperate. Women and children were not segregated to a distant place…the onus would have been then, as it is now, on the parent to keep the child quiet. (Which any thinking, considerate parent is going to do, anyway.)
Comment by Holly (April 5, 2005 @ 8:48 am )
Hi Amy, I’ve enjoyed reading your blog and am just now commenting for the first time. I don’t have kids (yet) and so I can’t give a practical example of keeping kids in the service; however, we must remember that the service is to glorify God and things like *our* reaction are purely secondary (if even secondary). The Church service exists not for us (as individuals) but for the corporate worship of God and how else can we help live this out than by having children in the service with us (or as you say, at least allowing them to be in the service)? I am of the opinion that those who forbid children in are (or at least appear) more concerned with what an individual “gets out of the service” than living out how the whole service is to be an act of worship to God. Our own ability to concentrate on the sermon b/c a child is crying seems to take the focus off its proper place. (Of course that’s not to say that a parent can’t take out a fussy child…)
Comment by Ashley (April 5, 2005 @ 9:03 am )
One day when boy#4 was 2, he did this ‘lets see how far I can lean over without falling on my head’ trick during the service. He didn’t make it very far. Since then, all the boys have learned to listen and not be a distraction. I gotta say tho, I have watched adults during services for a long time and they are wonderful at finding distraction if they are looking for it!
Anyway, my personal energizer bunny has not learned the art of being quiet during a service–that is unless she’s sleeping. But I take her out when need arises.
Todd, I think you may underestimate how much a child can understand during a service. And on my side of it, depending on the church, you can’t always be sure your child is being taught ’solidly’ if you are not present. So lets pretend for a moment….you are a homeschooler, you move, you begin attending a new church…right off the bat they want your 3yo to leave with this matronly looking lady. She seems nice, but you don’t know her from Adam. And you have no idea what she’s teaching–well she may mention that every time your child does a good thing he is adding a stick to his mansion in Heaven. Ok so it doesn’t sound so bad, but is it Biblical? (really have heard this one) Do you just turn a blind eye and say well as long as they’re safe and I can listen undistracted to the message?
Comment by Lyn (April 5, 2005 @ 10:07 am )
BTW, the comment about keeping kids in the service wasn’t directed at Amy but those who tend to disagree w/ her :).
Comment by Ashley (April 5, 2005 @ 3:10 pm )
On the issue of children at gatherings of a congregation, I think we need to keep in mind two principles. One is that children are to be taught. That’s clear. Another is that children should be taught according to their understanding. In Nehemiah 8:2 and 10:27, we have this interesting expression “all who could understand”. These are gatherings for public reading and explanation of the law and then covenant renewal. All were to assemble who could learn from it, but that assumes that someone wouldn’t be old enough to understand. Perhaps we draw the line in the wrong place in excluding children who can understand from the regular teaching of the adults, but there should still be such a line. One other thing this sort of assumes is that, where there is a growing level of understanding, there may be degrees of approaching the kind of teaching the adults have. That does justify increasing level of detail and understanding in grade levels of Sunday school. My congregation does this during the sermon. Three Sundays a month we have the children do an assumbly time during communion, and one Sunday a month they are present for communion. Their classes are during the sermon. I see biblical justification for this sort of practice, even if you might disagree on what ages should be where.
Comment by Jeremy Pierce (April 13, 2005 @ 8:39 am )