A love story only a Calvinist could love
Monday, Oct 10, 2005
It all started in 1995 at a commons table in the education building at UCF. I was an Arminian who ate lunch three times a week with three hyper-Calvinists. I’m a glutton for punishment. The battle waged for months as they threw out their Calvinist verses and I retorted with my Arminian ones. I held my ground.
Then the day came that they told me that I wasn’t saved because I didn’t believe “the truth.” So, I agreed to go to a conference that they had urged me to attend—just to get more ammunition for my arsenal. It was the 1995 Defending the Faith conference sponsored by Ligonier Ministries. I signed up to volunteer in the bookstore so that I could attend for free. I wasn’t paying for this stuff.
I reported to my volunteer position as scheduled and quickly realized that this wasn’t going to be all bad. I was taking over the spot for a tall, dark, and handsome fellow. While I was in a room full of people with bad theology, at least one of them was graced with some good looks.
So, as he was leaving, I inquired, “Where are you off to?”
He replied, “RTS. I have a class in an hour.”
So I responded, “RTS? [Note: this stands for Reformed Theology Seminary.] That must mean you’re a Calvinist, which means you believe in Limited Atonement. How can you believe that stuff and call yourself a Christian?”
I’ve always preferred the subtle approach. Yet, this was the line that sealed my fate as the future Mrs. McGregor Scott. I highly recommend it if you are single. (Unless the guy is an Arminian.) The doctrine of Limited Atonement was my last holdout (as I claimed to be a four-point Calvinist) but it was the means that got me my first lunch of many to follow with my future husband.
Over a meal the next day, he explained how Christ’s blood is effective for the elect. Another term to describe this is “particular redemption.” He communicated grace to me during that lunch, setting me free from the belief that all Calvinists forsook the Great Commission, lacked love, and emphasized divine sovereignty to the exclusion of human responsibility.
I suspect that the love part was easy to exude, as he confessed later that he knew that day that he would marry me.
Hyper-Calvinism is as much a threat to biblical theology as any other heretical doctrine. It is essentially a rejection of historical Calvinism. While I maintain that good theology is essential, Paul reminds us in First Corinthians 13 that without love we are “sounding brass” and “clanging cymbals.” My hope is that I may think rightly in order that I might live rightly before Him.
Good theology is crucial. And it doesn’t hurt the state of affairs of a single girl either.
34 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI
Leave a comment
« Previous: Snapshots, strawberries, and the supremacy of Christ
Next: Top 10 Reasons You Should Have Known I Was a Calvinist »
Return Home
Oh, that’s a great way to get into the conferences for a good price! I wonder if it works for other great conferences, like Piper’s Sovereignty and the Suffering of God. How did you know about this discount ticket?
Comment by nice (October 10, 2005 @ 11:13 am )
Predestination Twitterpation
Amy’s Calvinist love story.
…
Trackback by Thinklings (October 10, 2005 @ 12:13 pm )
Great story!
Comment by Janet (October 10, 2005 @ 4:51 pm )
I figured there had to be some good reason you left your much-more-Biblically correct 4.5 point standing…
Your Friend, the Savage Armenian
PS. Greg, you theologically sly dog, you…
*throws snowball on way out, hugging close to the ground for fear of Floridian…(uh, mudball?)… chucked back*
Comment by molly (October 11, 2005 @ 12:38 am )
OH my word, that was a great story! I smiled the whole way through.
By the way, do you think a hyper-Calvinist KNOWS that he’s a hyper-Calvinist? Just curious.
Comment by Karen (October 11, 2005 @ 4:27 am )
Hyper-Calvinists know everything.
Someone told me. I suppose you could ask for that information at any type conference. They always need underlings.
An Arminian.
Comment by Amy (October 11, 2005 @ 9:10 am )
Well, I suppose I’m opening a can of worms here, but this makes me curious. And I’m not trying to pick a fight, but I’ve never actually talked with a calvinist before. So I’m taking advantage. Do you believe in the elect of the saints? Meaning, that some people God “destined” for salvation and others for damnation? If so, how do you explain Mat 18:11 and 14? Are we not all lost, as verse 11 says? If we are all the lost, then how could Christ have not died for all? If Christ did not die for all, then that would mean that there are some of us who don’t even have a chance at salvation and we shouldn’d even try. ” You will be juged for the sins that you commited regardless of the fact that you had no choice to repent of those sin and be saved.” Not how just does that sound? I’m not the brightest candle in the window, but I do know that is not the character of my God to say to one “you are going to heaven and there is nothing you can do about it” and to another “you are going to hell and there is nothing you can do about it”.
Where is the choice that God has given us? God knows from the begining to the end, therefor He knows who will belive on Him. But that does not mean He chose for them (does anyone know how to do italics in this thing?).
Obvious out human minds can not commprehend the workings of God. And God is God and He can do what he choose with His creation. But He is consistent, He doesn’t give us a choice to follow or not, then revoke that freedom later on.
If you have stated at an earlier point that you are not a calvanist and that you don’t believe along those line, I will be silent and exit stage right, blushing profusly.
Jennifer
Comment by Jennifer D (October 11, 2005 @ 9:33 am )
Awww, a Wesleyan Arminian (and Calvinists should really learn what that is!!!) can love that story too. I “love” love stories.
Comment by Holly (October 11, 2005 @ 10:17 am )
Hi, I followed a link from the happy husband. Nice story! I like your dating approach.
I (jokingly) credit my “conversion” to Calvinism with a similar story. After arguing with a Calvinist over coffee, I left unconvinced. But my friend had noticed the guy working behind the counter had been eavesdropping. So to settle the matter once and for all, we decided we’d ask the guy - Is Calvinism true or false? The guy working said it was true and it all went downhill from there….
Comment by Lori (October 11, 2005 @ 11:24 am )
Jennifer, if you want to really find out what Calvinists believe, get RC Sproul sr’s “Chosen By God”. I used to argue against Calvinists until I read that book. Afterwards, there was nothing more I could say.
On the internet, I have found (But maybe I don’t go to the right places, I don’t know) these discussions very frustrating. Usually when I try to a HyperCalvinist jumps in and then I feel I have to diassociate from him and then it gets muddy.. and not very fruitful.
Comment by kerri (October 11, 2005 @ 11:56 am )
Jennifer, my long-standing, reader,
You’ve been talking to a Calvinist all this time, my friend!
Regarding your question on Christ’s death, the following excerpt is from one of the links in the post:
This is one of those issues that is debated continually. I, personally, do not view it as one of the essentials. For what I believe about election, et al, you can read a brief synopsis at this website.
For those who have asked for book recommendations, visit Cumberland Books and ask the owner for a good recommendation. (I posted at the same time as Kerri and missed her recommendation. I have not read it but heard that it is an easy read.)
Thanks for reading, Jennifer. And try not to strike me from your blogroll in too much haste.
Your friend,
Amy
Comment by Amy (October 11, 2005 @ 12:00 pm )
That was a great story! I e-mailed my hubby at work the link and he got a kick out of it too.
All during college I vehemently debated pre-destination with many Calvinists (RUF (Reformed Univ. Fellowship)attendees while I attended Campus Crusade) One guy imparticular - I thought he was soooooooo crazy to believe in this “reformed” stuff - but he was cute, so hey. . . Little did I know that the Lord would use those conversations several years later when I met a handsome young man who was headed to seminary - RTS no less. Long story short, I’ve been convinced and am now the happily married reformed wife to a PCA pastor.
Anna
Comment by Anna Peterson (October 11, 2005 @ 12:37 pm )
Amy-
I’ve read the article that you suggested and I’ve read bits and peices of Sproul’s “Chosen By God”. Non of them answer my questions, they just cause more of them. And I still do not agree. I don’t agree with the interpertations of the scriptures used and they way they are taught.
Never-the-less, I still enjoy what you have to say and your insights.
Up until now, there has not been much I’ve disagreed with you, aside from the first time I e-mailed you about the head covering. So I won’t be deleting you from my favorites, never fear. Besides, if you think about it, if everyone agreed on everything, what a boring place this would be. And the most important thing to have in common with each other, we have: Christ and a love for Him in everything that we do. So, you keep writing and I’ll keep reading, with a comment every now and then.
Jennifer
Comment by Jennifer D (October 11, 2005 @ 1:08 pm )
Amy,
I’ve long enjoyed your blog, as well, even though I’m not a Calvinist, Wesleyan, Arminian, Lutheran, Mennonite, etc…
I’m a “Jesus-ite,” a Christian, plain and simple. I don’t have a creed other than the Holy scriptures, or a confession, other than Jesus Christ is God’s son, and He is my Lord and Savior.
I’ll keep reading, too, though. You’ve got me hooked!
Comment by Connie (October 11, 2005 @ 2:39 pm )
Well, I had never even HEARD of “Arminians” until I listened to some of Michael Pearl’s teachings. He mentioned it at one point. I still don’t know what an Arminian believes that makes them different from a Calvinist (which I’m not really clear on either). So, if I read the Sproul book to learn about Calvinism, can you recommend a book to explain the Arminian position? My theological training is sadly lacking, and I’m working on the “always be ready to give a defense” part. First I need to clarify what I do, in fact, believe. Some of the issues that are out there I’ve been astonished to discover even exist. Such as this one. Did Christ die for all, or not? I didn’t have any idea that was even something Christians debated. So much to learn… Thanks for the help!
Comment by Elizabeth (October 11, 2005 @ 2:58 pm )
Amy,
I’ll have to agree with Connie and Elizabeth above. I don’t know of any other name given among men, whereby we must be saved, except the name of Christ Acts 4:12.
Paul even stated that he wished all men could be as he was (a Christian, as Agrippa understood), yet without the physical chains which held him at the time. Acts 26:29
I also must admit to ignorance regarding “Arminianism”. Never heard of it before coming to your blog. I will confess to having heard of Calvinism prior to now, but I must also say that, external to scripture is the only way I would have known Calvin’s name. Not within.
Come to think of it, I’ve never heard of a LOT of these folks that are mentioned from time to time. Guess I can be a Christian without them, eh?
Comment by /tim (October 11, 2005 @ 3:24 pm )
Yeah, I wanna know what an Arminian is too. Do you have a link handy? At first I tought, “Is she misspelling Armenian or something…” then I thought, “Nah, she’s Amy from Humble Musings.”
I have to say, it distresses me a little that the many “branches” of Christianity cannot see eye to eye, and that so many follow creeds from men instead of God. Why can’t we all just call ourselves Christians or disciples, instead of Calvinists, Methodists, Presbytarian, Lutheran, etc etc etc? (I mean, I know how it all happened, but I wish there were less of a division.)
Comment by Sarah (October 11, 2005 @ 3:24 pm )
The five points of Calvinism were created to answer Jacabus Arminius’s 5 points.
The five points of Arminianism are:
1. Conditional Election-Election is based on the faith or belief of man
2. Universal Atonement-The atonement is for everyone, but only believers benefit from it.
3. Saving Faith-Man unaided by the Holy Spirit is unable to come to God.
4. Resistable grace-The drawing of the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
5. Uncertain of Preservation
I don’t see Arminianism vs Calvinism as a point we should be adamant over, there have been godly men on both sides (As mentioned, the Wesleys were Arminian, for example.)
When I became a Calvinist, I didn’t like it. I pouted, really pouted, for about a year. But I felt if it was true, I would have to submit to it. But after a while it gave me comfort. I used to feel so helpless in praying for unsaved family that really showed NO interest in God. Then I relized it was GOD, not them that would bring them to salvation. Also, I used to feel so burdened for my childrens’ salvation. I began to wonder “Why have all these children if there is at least a 50% chance they will reject God and go to hell. I was afraid that my own imperfections as a mother would affect their eternal destiny. Realizing it was God, all God, gave me a lot of peace.
Comment by kerri (October 11, 2005 @ 3:34 pm )
Oooh, oooh, I know the book. Holly, my Weslyan Armenian (which is something I just learned about, distinction-wise)’s husband (a pastor) recommends THIS book which is now on my reading list:
“Called to Be Holy” by Dr. John Oswalt
You know, I love using Amy’s blog to prosletyze for my Armenian ways…
HHHHHHHHAaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaguffawwheezeSNORThahahaha…
The undecidedly (well, decidedly, by the Calvinist) 4.5 Armenian who secretly reads and enjoys Piper and Grudem,
Molly
Comment by Molly (October 11, 2005 @ 3:36 pm )
Hey, did you know Piper calls himself a 7 point Calvinist?! Just thought I would liven things up a bit
Here are a few verses that helped me along…you see, I was a Calvinist before I knew it
John 6:37-40 , John 6:44 , John 6:65 . God changed my heart first, He saved me, I did not invite Him into my life. All I could do was to repent and believe and obey.
Comment by Janet (October 11, 2005 @ 4:52 pm )
Wonderful love story.
(raised Baptist, now non-denominational Christian)
Comment by Khyraen (October 11, 2005 @ 5:39 pm )
To all who want to knkow more about Calvinism from a historical and theological perspective, I suggest a DVD called “Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism” (2004). Check out http://www.amazinggracedvd.com/
Comment by nice (October 11, 2005 @ 7:01 pm )
Here I thought Calvinism was when young children did something similar to Calvin in the cartoon “Calvin and Hobbes”. When Andrew created a city of mutant snowmen, we called it a Calvinism.
I thought Arminianism was a country folk relasping into country folk dialect after drinking too much homebrew. You know, “Are you meaning?” CF dialect, “Ar u meanun”?
Comment by KS Milkmaid (October 12, 2005 @ 12:58 am )
I’m curious about your comments in comment #11. Where does repentence fall into this? Repentance is the critical pivot point of Christianity where one turns from sin and to God. You wrote (And I hope these tags work like I think they will
But then why are not all saved? They answer, Because some do not believe. But is this unbelief not one of the sins for which Christ died? If they say yes, then why is it not covered by the blood of Jesus and all unbelievers saved
The answer? It is not covered by the blood of Christ because they have refused to repent of this unbelief and obey the gospel of Jesus. If one refuses to repent and accept the free gift of God then there is no hope for that person (See Luke 13:1-5, Acts 17:30-31).
Comment by Kirk (October 12, 2005 @ 9:14 am )
Oooooh Amy. Did you not realize what a stir you would cause with this topic??? (smile.)
I know what I believe
but I must say in all sincerity that I wish there were not such a thing as Calvinism vs. Arminianism. (and I must add that I don’t think the debates these days are between Arminians and Calvinists…I think they are between Wesleyan Arminians and Calvinists. I don’t even know of very many straigt Arminians these days. Most have evolved and grown and adapted from the teachings of Arminius, so thus the debate wouldn’t even be properly defined or framed.)
Honestly, theology matters on an academic level to me…but between any friend and me, whose heart I can easily see and read, it doesn’t matter an ounce on which side of the spectrum their theological persuasion lies.
And you, my dear, have a beautiful heart
Comment by Holly (October 12, 2005 @ 9:56 am )
KS Milkmaid, you are too funny! I’m afraid we have a few Calvinists of that stripe around here!
Comment by kerri (October 12, 2005 @ 10:53 am )
Most of you have probably never heard of the man Keith Daniel, and evengalist from South Africa. Our family have gone the last two days to hear him preach ~ he is a powerful, Godly man. If any of you ever get the chance to hear this man, go! You will be forever changed, if you are willing.
Anyway, he said something last night that I think is appropriate. He said “You don’t know wheather I am a calvanist or an arminians. And I’ll never tell you because I want the freedom to preach the whole Bible. In Ephesians 2:8 it says “For by grace are ye saved” and then there’s a coma. Well, in greek there is no comma, but a pause. So this makes me a calvanist. Then “through faith” ahh, this must make me an arminian.
He ends there, but I will continue the verse:
“And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God”. The gift being the grace of God. But just like any gift, if it is not taken, it can not be given. Of course we can not save ourselves, it is the death and reserection of Christ, with faith ON CHRIST, that saves us. Christ died to MAKE IT POSSIBLE for all men to be saved, when it was never possible before. Christs’ death does not make ALL MEN saved just because He died. They have to believe. And once they believe, the blood of Christ covers them and their sins.
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:9-11
Jennifer
Comment by Jennifer D (October 12, 2005 @ 12:30 pm )
Great story, Amy. My wife and I were already married when I became Reformed, so our story wasn’t so dramatic. She listened to me, decided it made sense, and joined me in that changed view.
Connie, you might not claim a label, but you fit into one of the categories better than the others unless you’re a computer that does a great job of simulating human communication.
If Jesus is your Lord and Savior, you must have a reason why that is so–if it’s because of something you’ve done along with Christ, you’re basically Arminian and if it’s because of something He did alone, you’re basically Calvinist. See, that wasn’t so hard! That’s why when someone like Keith Daniel (mentioned by Jennifer) says they’re neither, you can assume they’re basically Arminian.
Sarah, Christians don’t have to be divided because we disagree on some things. It’s really just a shortcut way to get a handle on what a person believes in certain areas.
KS Milkmaid, “Calvin and Hobbes” was named after John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes, so you’re not far off!
Dave Hunt had an interesting solution to the problem of people going to hell even though he believes Jesus paid for every single sin of every human and washed them in His blood–He simply stated that no one goes to hell for their sins! That opens up a few other cans of worms, I would think.
Comment by Randy Brandt (October 12, 2005 @ 1:49 pm )
Randy,
What bothers me mostly is the wide range of what we consider essential beliefs and fundamental morality issues. But not to veer off topic here
Comment by Sarah (October 12, 2005 @ 3:52 pm )
Homepage Updates, Articles and Information
Trackback by Parenting With Purpose (October 14, 2005 @ 10:20 am )
Theologilinks
A few links from this week in the world of theological blogging: What’s the best way to translate hilasmos (propitiation)? Better Bibles Blog discussed this issue. The Constructive Curmudgeon posted thoughts on The Crucifixion. Al Mohler just finished…
Trackback by Theologica (October 14, 2005 @ 3:35 pm )
That is a great story.
Comment by Julana (October 15, 2005 @ 9:49 pm )
In reference to Amy, point 11.
What about the unforgivable sin – not believing in Jesus?
That’s why it’s unforgivable and why you can’t benefit from the payment made by Christ who actually died for all the sins of all men, except that ONE big one.
Comment by Fiona (May 14, 2007 @ 6:01 am )
I am a RTS graduate Amy and still struggle with Calvinism everyday. I am comfortable with the security it offers in many areas, but other areas can be very frightening indeed…like knowing if you really are elect or not. I cannot accept the Arminian position either. At times its hard to know how God really feels about me or others at all. I grew up in the PCA, read all the Sproul, Piper and Packer books…and many more, but I find myself as confused as ever. Pretty ironic for such a respected seminary huh? Just like to ask anyone out there to pray for me. I dont want to be paralyzed or be agnostic about this issue. I dont want to be a fence sitter either.
I have wonderful friends on both sides of this debate.
thanks for such a honest and freindly blog!
Comment by Ken (October 16, 2007 @ 12:15 am )