Orthos, of the theological sort
Saturday, Jul 22, 2006
It is very interesting to me what posts illicit a strong response. Cranberry sauce. The Amish. Who knew?
In Acts 17, Paul is preaching Christ to the pagan Athenians. These people have never heard this Gospel, and so Paul brings home his point by appealing to their own secular poets (v. 28). In education circles, this is what we call appealing to a person’s schema. This God is new to them, and so Paul appeals to them using their own literature. We introduce the unfamiliar by appealing to the familiar. While Paul would obviously disagree with a pagan poet’s worldview, he nevertheless sees the good in what the poet notices (“We are His offspring…”). While I didn’t have this in mind when I wrote the post below, using an imperfect illustration to make a broader point is valid, just as Paul did.
These pagan poets were orthodox (they believed the right thing on this specific point) without even knowing what they are talking about. All truth is God’s truth. Can we not say the same thing about correct practice (orthopraxy)? All orthopraxy is God’s orthopraxy – even if those practicing don’t understand fully what it is they are doing. We may learn by their good example if can we refrain from throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as one commenter said.
While the Amish arguably have problematic theology, it is intellectually ingenuous to write them off completely. I’m afraid my single, larger point was lost on the fact that some Amish aren’t saved. Of course. But to turn that around, one must note that many professing Evangelical Christians aren’t saved either.
My position was a simple one. Namely, it is a good, worthwhile activity to consider why we choose the things we choose. The Amish are more notable than Presbyterians for scrutinizing a thing. If I said, “We should ask these important questions just as the Presbyterians do,” everyone would wonder what I’m talking about. However, when you mention that we should evaluate our widgets just as the Amish do, that makes a lot more sense.
Perhaps its simplicity was so simple that one was certain that there was more to it than that. (You shouldn’t give me that much credit.) When I mentioned in the comments that we should imitate that which is worth imitating, I meant exactly that. Gobble the good stuff; spit out the seeds.
If I thought the Amish had figured it out, it would be disingenuous for me to keep living as a Reformed woman who uses electricity. As it is, I enjoy my handy laptop.
Blessings to all who wrote…
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Amy -
Unfortunately there are those who have nothing better to do than scrutinize every word someone writes or says, and they then use those words to tear others down.
I’m sorry that you got some negative reaction to your previous post. I, for one, thought, “Point well-taken!”. I completely understood what you were saying and enjoyed reading your post … it gave a lot to think about. I understood you to be saying exactly what you wrote:
“it is a good, worthwhile activity to consider why we choose the things we choose”
You be blessed!!
~Heather
Comment by Heather (July 22, 2006 @ 2:38 pm )
Wow Amy. I just came back and read the comments after mine (when things picked up). I wouldn’t have expected all the controversy.
The points that people made were good to know - I really didn’t know much about the Amish beliefs. But I understood what your original point was and wasn’t about and could appreciate what you were saying.
I like what you state here about only saying so much. I find it easy in a blog or a comment to be a bit misunderstood b/c I didn’t explain every possible interpretation of what I said. Oh well.
If the Amish and cranberry sauce got a lot of response I would suggest a combo of sorts to see what happens. Try a post on Shoofly pie.
Comment by Carrie (July 22, 2006 @ 2:43 pm )
Amen, sister.
Comment by tonya (July 22, 2006 @ 3:13 pm )
I must’ve missed the confusion in the last post:), but this post should clear that up. It never hurts to ask if this *thing* (whatever it is) will draw me closer to Christ or farther away…
Comment by Anne (July 22, 2006 @ 4:51 pm )
Oh, Amy…now I remember why it was your blog that made me read other blogs in the first place! Your writing is fantastic. (It all started with my daughter telling me about this amazing, wonderful blog by someone named Amy, which I went to after asking her what a blog was…)
After reading this post, I went back and read the comments on your first post about the Amish. I had read it but didn’t see anything in the original post that would cause so MANY interesting comments.
I guess much of what I admire about the Amish is cultural but they offer to me a point of contact, a picture stuck on the bulletin board as a way of life I am moving towards. Just because their theology may not be correct, it does not mean so much of what they stand for in our own minds is incorrect (ie: simplicity, being closer to the land, good cooking/baking, gardening, etc.).
I too, have read Plain and Simple by Sue Bender again at our most recent library sale. I highly recommend it, also with the warning that the writer is not coming from a Christian perspective (which make it even more interesting that she admired the Amish).
Keep up the good work, Amy!
Comment by Brenda (July 22, 2006 @ 7:22 pm )
Note to self. Proofread a little better after having cut out part of a paragraph!
I, too, have read Plain and Simple again recently, after buying it at our most recent library sale! There, that makes more sense.
I read it the first time when I thought the author was old. Next week, I will surpass that age! Tempus does fugit.
Comment by Brenda (July 22, 2006 @ 8:26 pm )
Carrie - forget posting about shoofly pie - I want her to make me one!
Comment by Greg (July 22, 2006 @ 8:29 pm )
Heather, I didn’t take it as anyone trying to take me down.
I enjoy a lively debate and appreciate the opportunity to be kept on my toes.
We’re all good friends ’round here. Of course, a little pie makes the medicine go down better. Shoofly, anyone?
Comment by Amy Scott (July 22, 2006 @ 8:45 pm )
Great reflection upon your reflection. The whole piece left me thinking all night…okay, maybe not all night, but it did come back to me a couple times. I remember driving through the country and observing an Amish farmer plowing his field: behind two horses. I was struck by the passion–the willingness in the face of opposition and “sense” to remain true to one’s convictions. I do need to do a better job of asking the tough questions.
Comment by tina (July 22, 2006 @ 9:03 pm )
Hi Amy,
I wonder if some of the strong reactions in dealing with your post on the Amish have to do with a certain group of people… How can I best explain? I’ve run across some Christians in the last few years (end of college and into life) that homeschool (which I look forward to doing with my children) and at the same time do a lot of, well, “old fashioned” things like bake their own bread and so forth. For the most part, I thought that was kind of cool (but not for me), but there have been a few that kind of take a “holier than thou” approach - as if not having a television makes one more holy than the next person…
I love technology and I can safely say I wouldn’t have been in that 52 that raised their hands wishing they didn’t have a tv! LOL. That being said, there have been times I feel like maybe I’m looked down on because I enjoy computer games and a great movie and don’t spend all day preparing dinner from scratch. And I realize that because of the few times that I’ve felt like that, it kind of makes me defensive when someone declares the “amazingness” of “living simply”.
I’m not suggesting we be worldly, but even the life of the Amish was worldly a century and a half ago b/c no one had this kind of technology y’know?
Anyway. I may have been completely non sequiter about all this- it’s been a long day and it’s hard for me to focus totally on everything I’m reading after a long day in retail. But just a thought about those feeling a bit defensive.
Shannon
Comment by Shannon (July 22, 2006 @ 10:08 pm )
Shannon,
That’s an interesting thought. I haven’t heard from anyone who wrote on the previous post to know.
It’s not always easy to convey a smiling tone through typing. (Say, what happened to my smileys?!) Unless someone says emphatically otherwise, I assume the person is disagreeing in friendly fashion though.
Comment by Amy Scott (July 22, 2006 @ 10:20 pm )
As our pastor says, “chew up the meat, spit out the bones.”
Amy, I enjoy your writing tremendously. When I mentioned getting rid of tv, etc., I by no means was taking a “holier than thou attitude”. I was just commenting that why do we judge those so harshly that choose to not do things that they consider “worldly”? And that I believe that there seems to be no difference many times between a Christian lifestyle and a secular lifestyle. Shouldn’t there be??
Tracy
Comment by Tracy (July 22, 2006 @ 10:29 pm )
Heh, heh. Is that rhetorical or are we allowed to answer that?
Comment by Amy Scott (July 22, 2006 @ 10:47 pm )
I also enjoy your writings immensely. I think it is the wisdom and discernment I see in your writing that draws me back again and again.
On a different note:
Sometimes we look for a certain set of external indicators to determine if we or others are following Christ—walking the walk and talking the talk. It is almost like we want a check list so we can feel better about our walk.We devise groups and categories to promote the check list thing. Sure, we will bear fruit. But, we can’t overlook that much of our relationship with God is internal and of the heart. It is difficult to come up with a framework to determine if a certain lifestyle would bring us closer to God. I have seen dedicated passionate Christian’s that demonstrate they are living a rich full life in Christ and they are in a variety of settings, a variety of denominations.
Technology has been used to advance some evil vile things. But, I have no doubt that it has been used to advance some godly, God-honoring things as well.
I learned on another blog, it is okay to admire the Amish to a certain extent. It is a hot button topic though.
Comment by Christina (July 22, 2006 @ 11:07 pm )
Hey - don’t forget Bob Andy pie….or Raspberry Cream pie. They are simply too delish to pass up.
Comment by Dawn C (July 22, 2006 @ 11:09 pm )
Hey there-
As one of the ones who criticized the Amish in the first post, I want to say again that I really, really love your writing and your blog. I was definitely NOT trying to “take you down.”
I think your sentence: “The Amish merge their daily lives with their spirituality, and there is no defining line where one ends and the other begins,” was what caught my attention. A statement like that one made me think that perhaps, you were NOT aware of the cultishness and indeed the satatanic nature of the Amish religion.
And I have to agree–the Amish do merge their daily lives with their spirituality. They are working their way to Heaven, hence the “over the top” work ethic.
But I’m all for simple, unworldly living; which is one of the reasons I appreciate your blog so much.
Blessings, Michelle
Comment by Michelle-This One's for the Girls (July 22, 2006 @ 11:27 pm )
Hi again, Amy! To answer your questions from the last comments, they’ve been working me hard at the office and I don’t have much time lately. I’ve been posting occassionaly at Intellectuelle.
I definitely agree with eating the good stuff and spitting out the pips!
Shannon is right that the Amish stood out a lot less a hundred years or so ago, although IIRC they had already made choices that marked them out from others from the beginning - I think that buttons, for example, were fashionably militaristic at the time, so the Amish made prohibitions on them.
I think one would see this effect any time a group makes an commitment (explicit or otherwise) to a particular sort of dress or other cultural element - even if they allow slow change, they’ll become more and more different to contemporary fashions. Judge’s robes, Catholic vestments and religious habits, Orthodox Jewish Chassidic clothes were all once nearly normal clothing for a given time and place.
Externals vs internals is one of those find-the-right-balance things - after all, we are creatures that are a union of body and soul. If our internal state doesn’t bear external fruit and evidences, there’s something wrong. Externals can be very helpful, but it is also really important not to let them become a crutch or a replacement for one’s heart. They should be like the old definition of a sacrament, an outward sign of an inward grace.
It reminds me of wedding rings. AFAIK, no Christian denomination actually requires wedding rings as a point of doctrine, nor any other external sign that one is married. Yet (at least in the UK and US) most married women wear them (and a growing number of men). The wedding ring isn’t a substitute for a loving marriage, but it does function as a reminder to oneself and others of the existence and nature of the married state. This tradition has enough force that we would probably wonder a little about a married woman who didn’t wear one (aside from poverty or practicality in a particular situation), or - especially - anyone who stops wearing one.
Comment by Atlantic (July 23, 2006 @ 12:01 pm )
Shoofly and Bob Andy pies. Even though we may not agree with Amish theology, hopefully we can all agree that those Amish sure have some great pie names.
Comment by Carrie (July 23, 2006 @ 2:11 pm )
Amy -
I realized after going back and reading all the comments that no one was tearing you down … sorry about that! I tried to go back and edit my comment, but couldn’t … oh well!
I just assumed what I said because I see it all too often and it just bugs me! I guess what they say happens when you assume is true - LOL
Be blessed!!
~Heather
Comment by Heather (July 23, 2006 @ 2:17 pm )
Wow! We went on a short vacation and look what happened here! I have always romanticized the Amish, but never really wanted to become one. The idea of emulating their self discipline and willingness to stand out is appealling. However, the notion that changing your dress our other aspects of your lifestyle will create changes in your spirituality is, as others have pointed out, of course not correct. While on vacation, we had a converstation with two elder ladies while standing in line for ice cream. We were dressed in our longish shorts and tee shirts, trying to keep our kids out of the street and just being us when they struck up the conversation starting with “Are they twins?” and then it progressed to how many kids we had and what good manners they had to “You homeschool your children, don’t you?” This is a pretty typical kind of conversation when we take our family out. We don’t walk around with signs on our backs or make a point of telling people about our lifestyle convictions, but people notice. What you are inside determines what others see outside and any pure sacrifice made for Christ eventually draws attention to Him. Now, please don’t get me wrong–I still lose my temper with the kids, we have too much junk, and my husband and I need to lose weight. We have self discipline issues all over the place, but Christ motivates changes in us. Self control alone is not adequate. However, I really wish I had more self control so that others could see Christ more clearly in me. And holding up the Amish (and others) as examples of self discipline, I think, is appropriate. By the way, I don’t think homeschoolers are more sanctified than others–that is just an example of one of the sweet sacrifices we are making for Christ. Amy, thanks again for a thought provoking blog.
Comment by Another Heather (July 24, 2006 @ 11:04 am )
Oh, I would let you answer the question!
But, then I love to liven’ up the conversation. lol.
Comment by Tracy (July 24, 2006 @ 4:58 pm )
For a great resource on the Amish lifestyle, I recommend referencing a critically acclaimed, modern artists work entitled “Living in an Amish Paradise.” This amazing work has given me much of my perspective on Amish life and I thank Wierd Al Yankovic for his deep insights and dedication to truth.
Ok, just kidding, but it is a funny video.
My wife had me reading this blog and I couldn’t resist a comment.
Comment by Claire's Husband (July 24, 2006 @ 8:00 pm )
Forgive my ignorance, and but I’ve never heard of Bob Andy pie. what is it? (I’ve actually heard of Shoofly, but I don’t know what’s in that, either.)
Comment by Michelle (July 24, 2006 @ 9:05 pm )
Michelle, I do think you are generalizing a bit.
There are definately some cultish Amish and Mennonite groups.
There are also some cultish Baptist/Pentacostal/whatever churches scattered around.
But perhaps you haven’t met people like the ones I’ve met, who’s whole desire is to please the Lord. And yes, they are Amish (Beachy, to be precise). And yes, we have some doctrinal disagreements. But their particular church is not cultish, nor are any of the Amish or Conservative Mennonite churches I’ve made friends in.
Comment by Margaret (July 25, 2006 @ 6:52 am )
Hi Margaret–
Well, I’m only referring to the many Amish that live just 10 miles down the road from me. We have every brand of Amish you could wish to meet–as well as Mennonites and Dunkards. My real knowledge comes from my dear friend who finally left and was gloriously saved soon thereafter. Her testimony, coupled with her inside knowledge of the Amish are two things that have made my husband and I feel that the Amish should be a target of our evangelistic efforts.
But I love their homemade preserves and homegrown herbs–and shop in the H&M Country store frequently. My 7 year old daughter is completely enamoured with them (as we are constantly running into these folks) and has announced that she would like to be Amish when she grows up. (The horse and buggy thing does it to her everytime.) I bought her a bonnet for dress-up, but I am always quick to remind her that they don’t believe in the free gift of salvation paid for by Jesus’ blood; and as Bible believers we believe in “by grace alone,” through “faith alone.”
Comment by Michelle-This One's for the Girls (July 25, 2006 @ 10:46 am )
I posted some pictures on my blog a little while ago of a little get-a-way weekend trip that we took — we spotted the Amish parking section at the local Walmart and were told by the locals that the Amish love to buy lots of sugar and mountain dew at walmart! I thought that was funny
Comment by mommyof7 (July 27, 2006 @ 12:40 pm )