Both just and justifier
Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006
When I told the story of my daughter waiting for her sister in the race, I wrote the following comment afterward:
Just as an addendum to this post, I wanted to say something about my rhapsodizing. I have a great family, a fabulous life. Perhaps you wonder why I don’t mention episodes of weakness. I do not mention the shortcomings of others (save my own) because I agree with the Bible: Love covers a wrong. Because I want others to overlook my many faults, in public I endeavor to do the same as I wish others would do for me. We sin; we are not perfect. But I still have a great life.
Naturally, this isn’t a free pass to live as one ought as everyone overlooks your sin. Shall we sin so that grace can abound? By no means! (See Romans 6.) The balancing of grace and truth, done perfectly by our Heavenly Father, is a challenge for us mortals in a fallen world. The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are one. Reject the idea behind Process Theology and live your life embracing a God who is both loving and just.
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Amy,
You know, if I thought your family was perfect, I’d never read your blog. It is so sad to hear parents complaining about their children. It must break the hearts of those children to have their “dirty laundry” aired in public. Keep up the good writing!
Angela in CA
Comment by Angela (November 8, 2006 @ 1:14 pm )
Amy,
Especially if you are thankful for your fabulous life. There is also huge redemptive power in writing.There is a line in a song we like to listen to by Sara Groves: Love washes over a multitude of things….
When reading your comment, almost apologizing for rhapsodizing, I wanted to say(but didn’t want to post twice!) there is nothing wrong with rhapsodizing!
And, of course, we know our Father does that, too.
But..I appreciate your addendum to the addendum.
And your girls are so sweet.
Comment by Andrea (November 8, 2006 @ 3:03 pm )
Hi Amy,
I am a regular visitor to your site. You are a gifted writer and passionate follower of Christ. I am always encouraged and challenged, and sometimes entertained!
Just to preface what I’m about to ask, I want to say I am in no way being antagonistic or confrontational. I just want a little clarification, specifically on your side bar link about the school field trip to the abortion clinic. You said “why don’t Christians who advocate salt and light not send their children to the Islamic school of Jihad?” which I presume to be a reference to parents not called to homeschool? I agree, the incident featured in the link is appalling but I am curious about what you meant by the Jihad comparison?
Thanks, and keep blogging, I for one am the better for it!
Blessings, Lisa
Comment by Lisa (November 8, 2006 @ 3:18 pm )
Dear Lisa,
Because of the short amount of space del.icio.us allows me to write, I see how that can be confusing. Thanks for giving me a chance to clarify.
While many parents have various reasons for choosing to send their kids to public school, the most often given reason is that their kids are to be salt and light. The reasoning is: If Christians pull out of the public schools, it will go to pot.
Folks, it’s already gone to pot (see article in sidebar) and kids are not evangelizing other kids. As Dr. Phil would say, “How’s that workin’ for ya?”
The religion of the state, secularism, is a religion that opposes God. Did the Israelites hire the Baal worshippers to school their children in the law of God? Did the children of Israel send their kids to the Assyrian schools?
My question in question, “Why do Christians who advocate “salt and light” not send their children to the Islamic School of Jihad for evangelizing? Wouldn’t tuition fees count as giving to missions?” is my way of calling Christian parents to intellectual honesty. If you are really sending your kids to school to be “salt and light,” why not put your money out for the cause? Why not send your kids to a Jewish Day School? A Catholic school?
Each non-God-fearing institution is in need of the Good News. Why do you only choose the “free” one? (By putting the word “free” in quotes, I’m pointing out that robbing citizens of their money isn’t free. If one would disagree with me on this, try not paying your property taxes on a house that you own. But I’m digressing here.) Why not get serious and send our Christian 5-year-olds to Islamic schools?
To deny that the public schools have an agenda to indoctrinate your child into a drone of the secular state is dishonest. See John Taylor Gatto’s The Underground History of American Education.
Christian Day Schools and homeschools are the only viable option to today’s American Christian families. Admittedly, it is high time that Christian schools find creative ways to reduce their tuition and fees. Going back to a New Testament model of worship and living by forgoing all the riff-raff of extravagant buildings, programs, and Halloween festivals that rival a New Orleans’ Mardi Gras is one way to save money. Think of all the kids we could sponsor by TBN donations alone.
In the meantime, droves of parents are taking seriously the call of God to teach our children God’s law (Deu. 6). This responsibility to train belongs to parents, specifically fathers.
As evangelical children leave their faith in droves (see any Barna study), it is crucial that Christian parents stop the insanity–which is, of course, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
The reason that I write about family life issues here is because I believe that culture will be changed on a micro level, not a macro one. In other words, as more and more Christian families walk the narrow way, the Church will be made strong. The world doesn’t need another public Evangelical crusading against homosexuals, as recent news proves. Quiet, ordinary people who have presented themselves to God to use at His disposal will change culture. Little by little, a family here, a family there.
I am glad you asked, Lisa. I hope you still glad you asked too.
Comment by Amy Scott (November 8, 2006 @ 3:58 pm )
Whoa, Amy. Good stuff, as usual.
Comment by Janet (November 8, 2006 @ 4:58 pm )
I haven’t had to tangle with Process Theology since college, where my Religion professor (Dr. Frankenberry, believe it or not) was a Process junkie. That was almost thirty years ago!
Comment by Scott W. Somerville (November 8, 2006 @ 6:19 pm )
Wow! I’m so glad I came back to read the comments on this one! May I quote you on my blog? This comment would make a great post in itself!
“Quiet, ordinary people who have presented themselves to God to use at His disposal will change culture. Little by little, a family here, a family there.”
So well said! God has given you an amazing ability with our language. I can’t tell you how many times I have come here and read exactly what was on my mind in recent days, only said far better (and efficiently - I’m so wordy) than I ever could have said it.
Comment by Charmin (November 8, 2006 @ 9:44 pm )
I thought your addendum was wonderful and thought provoking. I blog on Xanga and although I too usually post about the positives in life, I had not consciously thought about what you said in the addendum. It encouraged me to take the time to consider the effects of my posts on those I write about in a deliberate fashion. I understood the intent you had in writing it.
I also enjoyed what you said to Lisa about changing our world on a micro level. I have felt that way for a long time. Our experience with Generation Joshua this past week has convinced me even more. An incredible effort was put forth for a “conservative” candidate in our state, and those efforts fell short, but the lives we live have great impact on the people we come in daily contact with. Blessings
Comment by GardenOfGrace (November 9, 2006 @ 12:28 am )
Hey Amy,
first, just wanted to say that I really enjoy your blog and as to comment on the original post, I fully agree. While we always need to take a serious approach to sin, we at the same time need to do so in a loving and understanding way. It’s one of those duality/parallel things. But I am found that it is so much better when you focus on love rather then fault.
I would like to comment on views held by many Christians about public schools, which have been touched on in this post.
First, let me just say that I agree with the condition and state of our public educational system and the secular culture. The world view held by most secular humanists is antagonistic towards true Christian or biblical truth. Or true truth as Francis Schaeffer would say. So we should consider it anti-Christian or anti-Christ.
Touching on your “process theology” (something I’ve experienced but until now I haven’t heard this term) But I believe from what I’ve read from your link on “process theology” that this is just simply a liberals method of breaking away from “objective truth.” So rather then viewing the Bible as Gods inerrant Word that is non-changing and is and absolute unchangeable standard for every age. It slides into the realm of “containing the Word of God” as Barth would say and that our faith is a subjective, inner meditative and mystical experience. Anyway, so with this type of theology, God is still revealing himself, we still have supernatural gifting at our fingertips such as prophesy and the Bible no longer becomes the main means of grace for the established church.
The reason why I mention this is because it touches on the subject of Christian education. You see, because a majority of the church has broken away from the concept of “being holy” or “set apart.” If Christianity no longer remains in the realm of objective biblical didactic learning and instead becomes more of a personal mystical experience, then the Church (the local assembly and or general assembly) becomes more of just an encouragement center rather then an institution governed and headed by Christ to “call out” His people and to separate them from the world.
So I say all of this to say…. that I believe and it is my opinion that local assemblies, or Christian local churches should provide Christian education for our children. I say this for these reasons.
Not every Christian family is capable of “homeschooling.” Not every parent is gifted with the ability to teach. So it is therefore hard for a lot of families to home school.
I’m only saying this because I know that there are Christians out there, (including myself) who would like to home school but just can’t. Please don’t view this as a negative comment to what has been said above, I’m am not trolling. I just think the “root” of the problem lies in the Church as a whole or institution or visible Church.
Private Christian schools in a lot of cases are not an option. Some private schools are very legalistic. some are simply too expensive and money becomes the main focus. Some are just too far away to be an option.
I don’t send my children to be “salt” and “light” to the world. Why? Because they’re “children.” Children are still learning and are not expected to be focused on their witness and or evangelism. Being a strong witness, evangelizing the gospel to a lost world, being “salt” and “light” shouldn’t be a role or calling for a child, in my humble opinion.
Are my children “salt” and “light” to those other children in their class? You bet. We can argue all day long if this should be a valid reason to keep our kids in public schools, but the fact remains, they are “salt” and “light” if they are reflecting Christian truth. My daughter I know reflects biblical truth and is Christlike in her manner. So I know that other children see something “different” in her.
So I do agree that our children are “salt” and “light” to the world, I just don’t agree that this should be a reason to keep them in a public school.
I am a very big proponent of covenant theology and or a “covenant Church.” In other words, I am a Presbyterian and my children have been baptized into the covenant family of Christ. As a covenant member of the body of Christ, I believe that my children ought to be brought up in a Christian educational system that teaches biblical truth and upholds a biblical world view.
So therefore I believe that local assemblies ought to providing Christian education for my children with the help of the whole body.
But these are just my opinions, not sure if they are very valid.
Just thought I would share.
The only thing that I can say about my children going to a public school is this.
I believe that the church should remain smack dab in the middle of the world. I don’t believe that we ought to shy away from it, no matter how debased and corrupt it becomes… look at the witness of the early church in the age of Rome.
I believe America can be considered a new Rome. I can make comparison after comparison on how alike these two societies and cultures are. But the new churches still had to function within this culture even through persecution.
So, I believe that with commitment and with the fact that my children our growing up in a Christian home and belong to a Bible believing church and are attending worship regularly, that they will continue to be able to grow closer to the likeness of Christ and be able to discern what is of Christ and what is of the world.
When they grow up, they will most likely hold jobs or have careers in the secular environment and so therefore, I believe that being brought up in a secular school system will teach them how to act in a secular world maybe? Again, just my opinions.
Anyway, just wanted this to be an encouragement for honest Christian families who are sending their children to public schools but often might feel unsure if it’s the right thing to do.
grace and peace,
Dave.
Comment by Dave (November 9, 2006 @ 10:37 am )
Dave,
You are right when you say, “…a majority of the church has broken away from the concept of ‘being holy’ or ‘set apart.’” Just to back up and for the benefit of other readers, the original word for Church is “ekklesia” which means literally, “called out ones.” This is crucial to our understanding of the Church and her role in the culture.
When the Southern Baptists called for a mass exodus of Christians from the public schools (which got shot down), there were a couple foreseeable problems. The first is that the mega Baptist churches generally charge a huge tuition fee, $10,000 / year for my local Southern Baptist school. While Christians can take advantage of their scholarship programs, which are privately funded, these costs understandably seem impossible.
Large tuitions do not encourage people to have large families. Large tuitions do not encourage women to stay home and raise their children. I read about an alternative one-room-schoolhouse concept (similar to the Amish and, ironically, similar to our homeschool) that seemed like a viable alternative to people facing some of these issues.
While private schools help with some symptoms, it’s important to address the core issues of why some people can not homeschool. In many instances, radical lifestyle adjustments most likely need to be considered: going to one vehicle, eliminating debt, or finding help for a mother who might be struggling with postpartum depression. Solving the core issues of “why I can’t homeschool” most likely need to be addressed whether or not you end up homeschooling.
For us, we’ve come head on with many of these challenges. I have five very small children. Instead of saying, let’s buy some birth control pills and drop them off at the bus stop, we’ve been searching for alternatives. In my Plain Talk interview, I mentioned this concept a little.
To give a concrete example, we came very close to buying a Berry Farm this summer. Why? So that we could ditch my husband’s long hours and traveling schedule so that he could relieve some of the discipling burden I was feeling. This was very crazy, but we believe raising faithful children is more important than a comfortable home, a cushy lifestyle. Our life wasn’t working with him gone a lot, so we looked for radical ways to do what we believe God is calling us to do. The small berry operation didn’t work out, but now he took a work-from-home job with 40 hour weeks (as opposed to the 60 hours and travel). We praise God for this.
We are looking to take steps to ensure our own children do not face these challenges. With local vacant ¼ acre lot prices at $100,000, staying here basically forces our children into the factory-type workforce. This means that my son will work his tail off to pay off a 30-year mortgage, support his family, blah, blah, blah. BUT—-What if we gave him a house and land when he started his family? We can’t even afford to give each of our children a vacant lot here, but in cheaper areas at $1,000/ an acre, we can afford to give them each a piece of land and begin a modest house that they can add on to as the children come. (My grandchildren, YESSSS!) Of course, they don’t have to take us up on it, but it’s there: an early inheritance.
It’s crazy. But crazy times call for crazy solutions.
Women are lonely, tired. Now to ask them to care for little ones AND homeschool, it seems that something has to give. It is wise and loving for men to concerned about their wife’s burdens. But it behooves us all to look for solutions that don’t involve the government. Each family has a different “tipping point” and the wise husband looks to tip the scale the other way—getting cleaning help, talking with another family whose children obey them, taking on some instructional time in the evening instead of leaving it all to the wife, giving the kids “The Talk”, curtailing the spending so that the wife does not have a burden to earn an income, etc.
But back to the original discussion. My challenge was to people who say that they send their children to be “salt and light.” I agree with you when you say that they should be salt and light, but again, that’s not why you send them. I can respect that. Where I differ with you is in this, “I believe that being brought up in a secular school system will teach them how to act in a secular world maybe?”
What will teach them how to act in a secular world is a thoroughly Christian worldview and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And how does faith come? By hearing the Word of God (not by visiting abortion clinics, saying no to drugs, and stopping in the clinic for condoms). It’s definitely possible to keep one’s faith in the public school, but it’s certainly more difficult. (I know because God kept my faith with my only encouragement being a stack of books by Elisabeth Elliot. I grew up living in the world—and take it from me, it sucks.) I’d argue vehemently that a parent’s job is actually MORE difficult when you send your children to public school than if you homeschooled.
Sorry for going on and on here. My single point here is to encourage people to think big, think radical. God wants to use our children for His own glory, and we have some unprecedented challenges before us. Yes, the Church should be talking about (and then doing something about) these things. Something other than throwing more money at the youth group program. Train fathers, help widows and their children, and by golly, stop the “Youth House Rock” nonsense. As I said in the opening paragraph, we are called out, set apart for His own special purposes. We are His people, not the world’s. We do not love the world or the things of the world.
Dave, I pray God’s blessings on your family as you seek to raise faithful children.
Comment by Amy Scott (November 9, 2006 @ 4:13 pm )
Come on, Amy, tell us what your REALLY think!
As the instigator of this not-so-little rabbit trail, I want to thank you for expressing yourself so candidly. I will continue to seek God’s will and purpose for our family, and as a parent sending her children to public school, I see myself along with my husband as the primary indoctrinator of our children, not the state. I certainly can see where public education could contribute to droves of young adults leaving the faith, but I also believe responsibility also lies with the parents and the faith they have emulated, the real vibrant kind that engages with the culture around them? Or the shallow, legalistic kind that cannot stand when countered?
I think homeschooling is amazing. A true call of God. One I pray more heed. I, like Dave, do not believe it is for us at this point in our journey. By no means have we bought birth control pills and drop the little pests off at the bus stop. We are blessed to live in a small town where we know and go to church with the teachers, where the teachers tell the Christmas story and pray with their class, where instead of exchanging gifts with each other the children contribute money to purchase gifts for a needy family…
Thanks for the conversation!
Lisa
Comment by Lisa (November 9, 2006 @ 7:57 pm )
My single point here is to encourage people to think big, think radical.
This may be why you wrote this post, but you also have had the effect of encouraging people who have already made steps to not only think but BE radical. Some may think our family is completely nuts… maybe we are!!… and people like yourself have become a blessed source of encouragement. Thank you for you honesty and integrity in this post.
Comment by martha (November 10, 2006 @ 12:02 am )
Great post Amy! I just blogged about some observations I have made and things I have been thinking about when it comes to raising our children to be “salt and light”. I just dont think we can throw them out there and say, “ok little one, minister!” When we send our little soldiers to battle in the Lord’s army I sure want them to be equipped by knowing how to use their sword.
Comment by Julie (November 10, 2006 @ 1:46 pm )
Dear Dave: You seem to have the same philosophy that many welfare state people have nowadays…someone else is responsible for my responsibilities. Why should the church provide an education for your children? Was the church or the father instructed to bring up his children in the nuture and admonition of the Lord? I believe it was the father.
Comment by Ginny (November 10, 2006 @ 2:01 pm )
Ginny, One warning for ya. Try to edit out the sarcasm next time.
Dave and Lisa,
It’s not my style to go back and forth, but I see a profitable discussion here. Thanks for your comments and the dialogue.
First thing, I want to say that I’ve faced my own inadequacies too readily to have pride in homeschooling. Even if I did it perfectly, the Bible tells us to boast only in Christ, nothing else. For this reason, I don’t often use the term “homeschool mom” when describing myself for connotations associated with it. I’m not on a mission to get more people to homeschool, but to see and savor Jesus Christ in our daily lives.
Also, generally, Christian parents who send their children to public school love and want the best for their children. I suspect you already know I think that or you probably wouldn’t have bothered with the discussion in the first place. This is not an “us” vs. “them” debate. I totally mean that. I love and enjoy my real life friends who choose public school.
There is no “but” coming. We are one body: not a homeschool and public school one, not a working and homemaking one, not a breastfeeding and bottle feeding one.
Lisa, I want to share with you my experience as a public school teacher. I taught in the public school system before I came home to have my first child. I taught the gospel in my classroom, not just with actions but words as well. When Easter came, I told them that the Easter Bunny was bunk and that Easter is a celebration of a Savior who died, was buried, and rose again. [Poor Jewish boy.]
Still, I would not have my child in my own first grade classroom. When my back was turned, there was a boy who pinched and punched the kids daily. I sent him to the office and they sent him back: lather, rinse, repeat. Then there was the boy who told all the kids (again, daily) to, “Go and F*** yourself.” The mom told me that I needed to do something about that boy.
These children are who your daughters are sitting next too. They come from abusive homes and are exposed regularly to pornography and other unmentionables. The Bible tells us that “He who walks with the wise, grows wise but a companion of fools suffers harm.”
Again, I agree that it is possible to come out of the public schools with your faith in tact. I can never be convinced that a child can come out with her purity and innocence in tact. The constant sexual fixation of today’s youth will desensitize your sons and breach your girls’ purity. They will be touched, grabbed, and groped (more so, on the school bus) if I can be so blunt. Please don’t mind my pointing out again that I taught in the public schools. The sexuality, violence, and vulgarity are normative, not the exception. There was no big difference between the high and low income schools I taught at.
Finally, I don’t participate in homeschool vs. public school debates because they generally turn into, “You think you’re better than me” or anecdotal impasses. I’m passionate about families, not because I exemplify one, but because I came out of a dysfunctional one. I’ve lived in the world and it boggles my mind why anyone would want others to taste it.
Yesterday, I noticed in our Bible reading in Luke that it mentions Jesus’ time had not come for ministry until he was 30. While the passage is descriptive and not prescriptive, surely we can allow that God uses preparation time in varying degrees. Children will be ready at different times for “battle.” I think, however, that you actually make your job harder and longer when you send them out too early. In the end, each parent must discern when each child is ready.
I want people to think outside the box. Get off the wide way. What obstacles are you facing and how do you need to solve them? Put the kids to bed early and get out some paper and pencil. Talk, dream, solve. Do you love your children and want to see them walk faithfully? Do not walk down the wide path. Walk down the narrow one. If the modern evangelical masses are swimming one way, make sure that you are paddling the other way.
Comment by Amy Scott (November 10, 2006 @ 4:57 pm )
[…] In the comments section of this post, I wrote candidly on my views on education. It’s not my usual style, but they are my usual thoughts. Crystal takes the discussion over to her site as well. […]
Pingback by Amy’s Humble Musings » Head’s up (November 10, 2006 @ 5:09 pm )
Amy, is it really right to equate Catholic schools with Jewish and Muslim schools?
Comment by MM (November 10, 2006 @ 7:29 pm )
Amy, I just love you girl. Thank you for expressing the truth so graciously. Amen and amen.
Comment by kat (November 10, 2006 @ 8:05 pm )
My children are twelve years apart (no, we did not plan it that way). My daughter went through the public school system, spent four years at college and has been married seven-plus years. We had challenges with the public school system but it was never anything we couldn’t handle by discussing the situations.
By the time my son started Kindergarten, things were already changing…a lot. We started homeschooling in second grade mainly because they wanted to keep him on drugs (ADHD) but also because we were already weary of the foul mouth words he was bringing home (yes…kindergarten and first grade) and the politically correct system that was in charge of our school system. I could not believe the changes that had happened in our society in twelve years that were manifesting themselves in the classroom.
I know good Christian young people, from excellent homes of faithful Christians, who are rebelling. Every friend I talk to who has a “prodigal child” tells me it started in the public school system. Each one thought their child would be strong enough to challenge the system and swim upstream from the norm. They weren’t…they didn’t…they got caught up in the current and are causing their parents so much grief that it hurts.
Here is a very interesting article that I put on my blog tonight but it is worth posting here. It’s what the world thinks of us as homeschoolers…click here.
Comment by Brenda (November 10, 2006 @ 8:46 pm )
Thanks for the reminder Amy. It’s been a challenging homeschool week here at our house. I’m too stubborn to give up and too convicted to ever seriously consider doing anything else.
Your words are encouragement for my soul. Many thanks and God bless!
Janel
Comment by Janel (November 10, 2006 @ 9:25 pm )
“Dear Dave: You seem to have the same philosophy that many welfare state people have nowadays…someone else is responsible for my responsibilities. Why should the church provide an education for your children? Was the church or the father instructed to bring up his children in the nuture and admonition of the Lord? I believe it was the father.”
This was a reply to my reply.
I would just like to say, that I believe I explained myself pretty clearly when I stated that I am a very big proponant of the “Covenant Church.” I believe that the local assembly should be involved with Christian Education both for children and adults.
This is my main concern. Yes as Christians we are to think “Radically.”
But there are a lot of Christians who are new Christians. There are families with parents who are new believers. There are also homes with only one believing parent. We are all in different places in our faith and we all have different cercumstances. I was only intent on bringing up the point that public schools might be the only option for some Christian families and that it’s hard to have “convictions” that are drastically different from peoples current lifestyle.
Yes yes I know, we are called to “pick up our cross and bare it.” Being a Christian means “a radical change in lifestyle. It means to repent and be to be holy. But we are sanctified in the spirit over our whole lives. Sometimes it is an overnight drastic change, but sometimes it’s a longer process. When whole families are involved it’s very hard to say, well scripture says this and so you need to completely change. I don’t believe sanctification works like that.
So anyway, again, I’m not against home schooling at all, by any means, nor am I against private schools. I’m just saying that It is my opinion that in certain areas, public schools can and should still be an option. Now, I’m not saying that this is the case with “all” public schools. But there are good school systems out there.
Grace and peace,
Dave.
Comment by Dave (November 10, 2006 @ 10:05 pm )
It is so encouraging to see others debating this issue. I’ve had my fill all week with people who think Christian kids “need” to be in the public school. I hope you don’t hate me, but I’ve linked and I’m sending them your way!
Comment by Spunky (November 10, 2006 @ 10:30 pm )
Wow Amy. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed hearing you speak your mind - and - I agree with you! Good job! (I think I’ll put out the $5.00 and buy that Plain Talk tape. You’ve convinced me.)
(and you can send me a small token of your appreciation for mentioning it again so that everyone floods the phone lines to order…) 
My only comment has to do with church run schools. I don’t really believe that it is the Church’s job to educate my children. It is my husband’s, and mine. I really DO believe that any parent with grit and determination can homeschool their child. It has been done, over and over and over again, with great success.
Comment by Holly (November 10, 2006 @ 10:39 pm )
For those who want/ feel a burden to homeschool but do not think they can I think you gave some great advice. Mom’s are worn out, many of what makes us so tired is the “unreal” expections the homeschool community has potrayed. We act like everyone needs to be baking bread in their hand made dress with a smile… you get my point. Christ’s working in us and our family will look different in each home.
When I first started homeschooling 7 years ago, I was very intimidated by the “cookie cutter” family. Homeschooling is about OUR children being with THEIR own mom and dad. Working through mom’s anger issues and seeing her repent again! It is real life. And resting in our great and glorious God together.
It is a blessing that you have opened up as you have. I think you show that anyone can homeschool if this is their desire.
I don’t think I would push every family in the direction of homeschooling, I once would have. The questions you ask are thought provoking and need to be talked about. Christians must be talking and not name calling about the issues of education, entertainment, birth control, ect.
Thanks!
Comment by Mist (November 10, 2006 @ 11:08 pm )
Holly,
I listened to Amy’s Plain Talk interview. It is well worth the $5.00.
Renee
Comment by Renee (November 10, 2006 @ 11:09 pm )
i do not wish to promote any kind of disention. i have regularly read your blog with great interest and admiration for your writing ability and most of all your Godly perspective.
it is just that i do not believe that there is a concise, broad sweeping answer to schooling our children. we have four children, ages 17-4. our youngest 2 adopted. we have always homeschooled our oldest 2 and our oldest will be graduating this school year. homeschooling has been both a blessing and rocky road for us. we expected this and and accept this . our 7 year old is in first grade at our very small public school and he is a special education student. it is simply not a fair assessment to lump all christian families who choose public school over homeschooling as taking a lesser interest in their children’s education and more importantly their spiritual lives. i realize that you and your blog commenters have not said that explicitly; but with all due respect, that is often times the attitude conveyed not only by your site but by other homeschooling families. our son was born severely drug addicted and we have completely exhausted ourselves with making every attempt to get him the complete support that he needs, spiritually, emotionally, physically, and psychologically. this is something that has been brought to the foot of the cross DAILY and it is something that weighs tremendously on our hearts,( perhaps as his mother, it is on mine the most.)we continually and actively seek God’s perspective and blessing on how he would have us care for the blessings which he has given us. before i had children i used the word NEVER a lot! i will NEVER…. you know…”fill in the blanks.” before i adopted our youngest 2 boys i often looked at families who had children that were irritable, agitated, aloof, hyperactive, aggressive etc.. and clucked my tongue and thought “well….i would not allow that kind of behavior, i would do..blah blah blah.’ i think you know what i mean. my perspective regarding what is necessary and meaningful has been adjusted over the past 7 years. i have often times been beaten down by the expectations and “veneer’ that homeschooling families and organizations sometimes project and promote. i am glad that homeschooling has been and remains a blessing for your sweet family. please remember that there are families who aren’t able to homeschool for a myriad of reasons, not just because they are not willing to “forgo the 2 and 3rd car payment, motorhome, vacations, fancy clothing etc.” nor are we popping the pill and dropping the children off at the bus stops without concern, and as difficult as it may be for some to understand or even believe this, not because we are refusing to heed what someone else believes is God’s call on our family. again, please understand that this is not a comment meant to incite irritation and frustration. i believe that there are others out there that are struggling like me that may feel similarly and are afraid to reach out or speak out for fear of being ridiculed and ostracized by the homeschooling community. i know i have used some strong words. this is my opinion and i appreciate your willingness to listen. may God bless you and your family. thank you, julie harris
Comment by julie harris (November 10, 2006 @ 11:21 pm )
Julie-
You are the single post that I agree with here, and I encourage and admire you greatly for thinking independently on this issue. I also note that you are one of the only mothers represented in this line of comments to be parenting teenagers- and thus you have a humility and perspective not found by other commenters (in my mind). You are further along in the journey of parenting and thus, more worthy of being listended to, in my opinion. My parents also had an eclectic mix of schooling styles for all 5 of us kids over the years. We were placed according to spiritual and educational need in different environments over the years of our schooling. All of my sibling and I are believers. We were not harmed, buy rather helped, by our time in the public school. I am currently steeped in relationships in my neighborhood with unbelievers, and my kids play with my friends’ kids every day. There is tons of ministry going on. And my home is open to whomever God brings into it- kids and adults. Last week it was a neighbor’s foster child, last night a little girl from down the road who wanted to play tea party with my daughter. I believe exposure to the world and interest in those of the world is the best means to change the world- not talking about being “maidens”, wearing bonnets and long dresses, and schooling at home. To most people, that is plain weird (take it from me. there is one homeschool mom in our neighborhood, and her choice to homeschool affects people as strange, rather than “changes the world”, or the neighborhood as the case may be). I know that argument that “strange is good” “We should look different to the world, etc”. But, the main responsibility of believers is to look LIKE unbelievers as much as possible- just inheritors of grace. After all, we much more like the unregenerate, even as commited Christians, than we are like God Himself. We should not be striving to glorify ourselves and our families and our choices through seeking to be “better” than others. And this is often what honeschool families think: my kids will be so well-behaved, etc. that everyone will know we are Christians. Error. You will reach your neighbors on THEIR terms: by loving their kids, playing with their kids, by realizing their struggles. And this will not happen by being removed from the fray, but by hopping right into it.
Maryanne Helms
Comment by maryanne helms (November 11, 2006 @ 8:02 am )
I agree in principle with what Dave is saying and I don’t see him advocating relegating parental responsibility to the church. In our church, when a child is baptized, the church membership stands with the parents to affirm that they will work with the parents to raise those children to be faithful. It is not that the parents are abdicating their responsibility, it is that the larger community is affirming that this is a job for the covenant family, not just the biological one. (In credo-baptistic churches that I have been a part of, much the same thing takes place with infant dedication). This partnering with the parents must mean more than just telling Johnny to stop running in the sanctuary and Susie to hush in church.
It may not be possible for a family to homeschool for a variety of reasons. But, thinking covenantally, the church should step up to help with the kids education. And I’m not talking about the typical Christian school model, which is really just the public school model with some Christian flavoring. It is generally big business for churches and there are few out there who pursue it out of a ministry mindset, despite stated intentions to the contrary. When I mean help with the kids education, I don’t necessarily mean teaching the kids either. I mean making it possible, if not easy, for parents to be able to teach their own children. Perhaps it means that the older women of the church, instead of disparaging the homeschool mom of a large family for being “run down” with an “I told you so”, or “that’s what having too many kids will do to you” attitude, perhaps it means they will actually step up and fulfill their Titus 2 roles in the church. Perhaps is means that the men of the church come together to make it possible for the single mom to provide for her family and educate her children.
If we were truly a community and not a bunch of individuals who come together on Sunday, this would be a lot easier. However, we usually try to forge a community out of similar worship styles, preaching styles, program likes and dislikes, etc., and what we wind up with is people who live their own lives 6 days a week and then try to act like a real community on the seventh. Isn’t this the same thing that most modern families do? Do we not see the disfunctionality in our disintegrating families? Why do we expect different results in the church?
To return to the original point, Dave, I think your point is something that a church that wants to be a real community needs to wrestle with and we need to do it in a way that doesn’t model the world’s thinking (like the typical church run Christian school). If we could get past the homeschooler smugness, public school defensiveness, our family is more holy than your family because of how we do school type stuff, perhaps we could truly advance this much needed dialogue. There are always exceptions to any rule. For every anecdote you provide of a super successful homeschool child I can provide one of a super successful public school child, and vice versa. This is not the point. We focus on the exceptions and never get to the fundamental principles. It is the principles that should shed light on the exceptions, not the other way around.
Comment by Greg (November 11, 2006 @ 8:55 am )
As a homeschooling mom of teens, I thought I would share our experiences. Our oldest daughter, now 16, did attend public school through the second grade so I have experienced both perspectives.
We have homeschooled our five children for the last nine years. My husband and I both are products of public school and I loved every minute of my public school education. I was quite the social butterfly! But, I came out of that ’scarred’. I was scarred in the sense that my innocence was violated. I knew more about worldly and immoral things than my parents did. My friends, not my parents, were my closest confidantes. I also came out of that experience with a career mindset. Public schooling and college only served to indoctrinate me in the belief that I needed a career to truly be happy and that “just” being a wife and a mother would not fulfill me. It caused me to shun my role as a wife and mother to which the Lord has called me. I do not want to perpetuate this curse on my own dear daughters.
My oldest daughter (now 16) went to public school until the 2nd grade when the Lord really impressed on me that homeschooling was what He wanted us to do. I have a masters in elem. ed. and I wanted to teach! So, I had to lay down my own desires for a career and fulfillment in that, and rest on the Lord for the strength to do what He called me to do. I had to die to self and say to the Lord, Your will not mine be done. What a blessing it was to be obedient to that call!
And, you know what? He has equipped me and guided me these last nine years. I wouldn’t trade a minute of it! My children’s hearts are knit together so tightly to mine and my husband’s hearts. The children are each others’ best friends. They seek to serve along side of us out in the world… being ministers to the hurting, acting as ambassadors of our family when I can’t be there, counseling those younger and so much more. I must say these things wouldn’t have been possible if they had been exposed to the corrupting influence of their peers (and possibly godless secular teachers). Even peers from the best and godliest families are a corrupting influence on your children. There must always be that supervision and interaction within a parents’ control.
Now that my older daughters are teenagers, they have a strong vibrant faith and are able to sift the wheat from the chaff much more on their own. That skill will only grow as they grow in wisdom and maturity. It is truly a blessing to be able to disciple your children from birth until adulthood… a privilege I wouldn’t trade for all the tea in China!
As a quick side note, I also want to say, there is nothing in the world like teaching your child to read! It is a thrill when you see that light bulb go off and they ‘get it’! Everyone in the family celebrates these victories big and small. We all have an investment in the hearts and lives of the other members of the family. It’s a joy and a delight! Why would I want to give those precious moments to another?
Comment by Lady Why (November 11, 2006 @ 8:57 am )
Amy, excellent discussion going on here.
But, may I ask why you are lumping Catholic schools in with Jewish and Muslim ones?
As a Catholic who has a personal relationship with Jesus and who knows a number of similarly “saved” Catholics, I must say I found this difficult.
I understand that many Catholics are not saved. There are in fact a number of evangelicals that are not saved, as well. Do you then lump evangelical schools with Muslim ones?
Sorry for the tangent, but this hit my heart terribly today.
Jill
Comment by colicmommy (November 11, 2006 @ 11:27 am )
“We focus on the exceptions and never get to the fundamental principles. It is the principles that should shed light on the exceptions, not the other way around.”
Exactly!!! I loved that comment and I am greatly encouraged by what you have to say, Amy. It is a hard topic but such an important one.
That said, I think the scariest arguement I hear is, “We live in a “good” school district. I was homeschooled for the majority of my school career after my mother pulled me out of the goverment school system in the third grade but I did choose to go to public school in the tenth grade, by the eleventh I was begging my mom to let me come back home :). I went to a “good” school in an affluent community where the children got good grades and there was virtually no . But there was a constant focus on who’s dating whom, cheating on whom, sleeping with whom, etc. There were constant invitations to parties where there would be drinking (and likely ). There were NO edifying friendships, even from church friends (and don’t get me started on youth groups ;)). I’m not trying to be rude but unless you are with your children constantly you can’t say what they are hearing or what their friends are like, teenagers especially can be extremely two faced (notice I said “can”, I’m not accusing all teenagers of being helplessly deceptive)! …little angels around their friends parents, but boy you better watch out when the s have their backs turned! My sister has taught in the elementary schools in the same district and the things those poor children go through is just not right, being called stupid by teachers and passed simply so the teachers won’t get “stuck” with them for another year, bullied by other children and then told to buck up and not be such a sissy by the s who should be in charge (and very few of the s are actually in charge!). They actually recruit “harsh” people on purpose! My sister was told she didn’t appear “harsh” enough during one interview. I understand that not everyone is currently in a situation where they can homeschool. I don’t believe it is a church’s job to educate the average child though I do believe they should step up when there is a true need. I am now a homeschooling mother and I can not imagine what I would do if ever faced with a stumbling block to homeschooling. I can’t imagine myself ever being able to turn my children over to practical strangers everyday knowing they are walking the halls surrounded by a lot of people who do not love them. I’m not trying to be rude or obnoxious, I just want people to realize that unless you spend as much time at the school as your child does (and what would be the purpose of that? you may as well homeschool if you have that kind of time :)) you can’t rest in the facade of a “good” school. There is no school to equal the education you receive in a “good” Christian family…and I haven’t even gotten into the colossal waste of time in the goverment system or biblical principle :).
Comment by Shelby (November 11, 2006 @ 1:03 pm )
Something to note: The article that started this all with a field trip to the abortion clinic? It is no longer on the sidebar. But I saw it on anothr site.
That’s a private school. And evidently a very expensive one.
Comment by my boaz's ruth (November 11, 2006 @ 2:33 pm )
Simply because I’m not Catholic and wouldn’t send my kids to a Catholic school any more than a good practicing Catholic would send their kids to a Baptist school. E.g., we don’t pray to Mary or the saints; why would I allow my children to do so at school? My sincere apologies to those who are Catholic and believe in justification by faith alone, based on grace alone, because of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone as found in the Scriptures alone.
One time in my husband’s Sunday School class someone asked him, “So, do you think there will be Catholics in heaven.” He replied, “Most certainly, and there may even be some Presbyterians too.”
Thanks for the heads up.
“Why do Christians who advocate “salt and light” not send their children to the Islamic School of Jihad for evangelizing?” A lot of text has been written but I still don’t see a reply to the discussion starter. If you don’t send your children to school to be “salt and light” (as commenter Dave replied) then my question isn’t directed to you.
It is true that I haven’t raised teenagers. I’m not arguing anecdotal evidence, but rather, what does the Bible say? Where is the precedent of sending Israelites to Baal worshippers for their education? Where do we see children being sent out to bring the gospel to the Romans?
I apologize if I have not demonstrated humility, as suggested in comment #28. I don’t see my role as a teaching one, except when I tell you how to cook chicken. You should really listen to those parts. Where the Bible is clear, I take my stand. The charge of arrogance of the homeschool community is generally true, and I’d ask that you reread my previous comments again. It’s also generally true that public school parents take offense when none is intended.
Grace and peace to all and I’m asking that any further comments address the initial point.
To Julie, Thank you for the note. I hear what you’re saying. To your concerns, I’d reiterate Greg’s comment above. We weren’t meant to bake whole wheat bread from scratch and juggle the spinning plates alone, in isolation. I am a mom, too. Sometimes I’m not willing to admit needing help (and consequently, holding up that perfect veneer that you’re talking about). I’ve been told that it’s (having them all come down with the flu and having a horrible week) my own fault for having so many kids, so it becomes a vicious cycle, you know? I’ve been betrayed when I’ve let down my guard, but it behooves me to take more risks anyway.
Comment by Amy Scott (November 11, 2006 @ 4:19 pm )
I have read with great interest the thoughts given here on how Christian parents should approach educating their children.
I believe it is the parents’ resposibility to see that their children are taught in an appropriate manner, whether it is through homeschooling, private schools, or public schools. Parents should not blindly choose any of these options, but honestly consider what is best for their children and their family.
I have a new daughter, and right now I have no reason not to plan on sending her to public schools in our conservative area of the country. Since I am a proactive parent, however, if I see the need to send her to private school or homeschool, I will gladly do it. I have never thought saying a kindergartner can be salt and light is realistic.
With that said, I refuse to give up on public schools. I spent the last seven years teaching, five years in kindergarten and two in sixth grade. I have taught many students to read who would never have learned at home. I have seen students who had no structure and discipline at home learn about rules and consequences. I hope that I have been an encouragement to many students and parents along the way. The public schools are not such a dark, dark place as many people choose to believe they are.
I realize everyone commenting here is concerned for their own children, and rightly so. By all means, do not sit back and let someone else raise them. But please consider that public schools and teachers can do some good also.
Comment by Amy T. (November 11, 2006 @ 7:04 pm )
[…] See the comments here for more. My question in question, “Why do Christians who advocate “salt and light” not send their children to the Islamic School of Jihad for evangelizing? Wouldn’t tuition fees count as giving to missions?” is my way of calling Christian parents to intellectual honesty. If you are really sending your kids to school to be “salt and light,” why not put your money out for the cause? Why not send your kids to a Jewish Day School? A Catholic school? […]
Pingback by Humble Musing Wants You To Think Big & Radical On Homeschool « poststop (November 12, 2006 @ 3:13 am )
Amy Scott said above in post # 4:
“While many parents have various reasons for choosing to send their kids to public school, the most often given reason is that their kids are to be salt and light. The reasoning is: If Christians pull out of the public schools, it will go to pot.”
I’ve heard this reason a few times, but I don’t believe it is the primary reason Christians are sending their kids to public schools.
More often, in my experience, Christians are sending their kids to public schools either because they feel they have no other choice or because they don’t really grasp the dangers of having their kids exposed to a secular worldview day after day.
Some people think they have no other choice because they lack faith and don’t realize all that God can do with our meager means and abilities. Some people don’t see the dangers of the secular worldview because they lack Bible knowledge and don’t really know what God has to say about the matter.
But it is also possible that God has a plan for their family that we know nothing about. It is possible that God has placed them in a certain place at a certain time for a certain purpose. Who am I to say that they are not where God wants them? Who am I to say they aren’t exercising enough faith? Who am I to say they don’t know the Bible? Maybe they are brimming over with genuine faith and know the Bible inside and out, but God has not called them to homeschool their children. Far be it from me to assume to know what God has called them to do.
I wonder how many tongues were wagging and how many people passed judgment on Esther when she took up residence in the palace of Ahasuerus. Surely that was no place for a God-fearing Jewish girl!
Yes, I homeschool my children. It is hard work. It gets harder and harder with each passing year. My oldest child is a high school senior this year, and I feel more and more inadequate each day. Yet, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God has called our family to homeschool and that educating our children in any other way would be disobedience to God.
I don’t believe that God calls all families to homeschool. I do believe that if God calls you to homeschool, you will know it, and you will know that you are disobeying if you don’t heed the call. When God called us to homeschool, the message was loud and clear. Even when the going has been tough, there has never been a doubt about the call. And for us, sending our kids to public school would be an act of disobedience.
Regardless of WHY Christians send their kids to public schools, none of us can justify passing judgment on the parenting decisions of others. Each of us is responsible to God and God alone for those decisions. God may be calling more Christians to homeschool. Those He calls have a choice of obeying or disobeying. But since we have no way of knowing who God is calling to this task and who He is not calling, we ought to leave the judging up to Him.
So, if you believe God has called you to send your kids to public school, be obedient. If you believe God has called you to homeschool, be obedient. Keep your heart and mind tuned to God’s will by absorbing the Scriptures. Then obey. That’s all you can do.
Comment by Kelly (November 12, 2006 @ 4:06 pm )
Almost all Christians I know who send their kids to public school will say the same thing, “our school is different. We have many Christian teachers in our school.” Sometimes they’ll even go on to tell me stories of when God was even mentioned by a teacher, etc.
That may be true but for me that would not be enough to send my kids back into government school. Now that I’ve had a taste of what a Christian education is I’m so very thankful the Lord led (more like forced! LOL) us to homeschool. Now I wonder how on earth do you teach a kid history and not talk about how God preordained certain events to unfold to reveal His plan? How do you teach a kid about creation without acknowledging the Creator of it all? How do you teach a little one about math and not marvel at how God designed the universe to have order? If the “beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord” how do you try and give a child wisdom without teaching His word?
Even if my kids could get a much better education by the worlds standards if I were to send them to the government schools, if they’re not being taught truth or being given wisdom, what good am I really doing them?
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26
That is what is at stake here. That is why I want my kids to have a Christian education. They have been placed in my stewardship by God and He has commanded me to teach them about Him when we rise up, and when we lie down, and when we walk down the road and when we sit in our house. Basically, ALL the time. They may very well come out of a public education with their faith intact. They may very well come out of homeschool and turn atheist. I’m not the Holy Spirit and cannot regenerate their hearts. I can only do what God has commanded me to do. Teach them about Him!
Comment by Amanda (November 12, 2006 @ 7:14 pm )
Okay, I’ll give the original question a go: But please don’t ban me from your sight
I truly enjoy reading it and there is much that I agree with.
I do think that you’ve indirectly posed a strawman argument with your question. I do believe that those who advocate sending their children to public schools so that they can be “salt and light” do so with the idea that sending a child to public school allows for the entire family to interact with the community. If your child is in the public school then in the best of worlds, the parents volunteer in the classroom, they help out in extra curricular activities, their children form relationships with other children that are Christians and together in that small faith community they exhibit salt and light to community at large. (We have seen this occur in our own lives as my husband has related to his coworkers about the degree of care our new church has given to us when he has had to travel.) I don’t think that they believe they should send their children off, little Roman Road tracts in hand, to stand atop the monkey bars yelling “repent.”
Historically speaking, God’s plan seems to be rife with people that have been educated in secular societies, Moses is one example. Daniel another. Paul’s story would have been quite different had he not received a Roman education. I am quite thankful that there were Christians in my husband’s highschool. At his high school reunion he thanked several of them for the lives that they led because their example eventually influenced his decision to follow Christ.
If it is true that public schools are places of unspeakable evil, then you have to also believe that the church has abandoned it’s most vulnerable children to it–those who do not come from Christian homes, the children of single moms, the poor and uneducated. It is better to say that God calls some families to be in public schools and some to homeschooling.
In the end we are all called to be in the world, not of it. And to some degree we have to engage it whether we homeschool or not. And since we are not arguing over if we should be in the world or not we are essentially debating degree and method–to what degree and method are we to be in the world. And so sending a child to an American public school where he will have Christian friends, where the family would be united with other families in their effort to be Salt and Light is quite a different matter than sending him to the Islamic School of Jihad where doubtless they would probably not be accepted.
Personally, in our circumstance, having recently moved to Australia, Catholic private school is an option. Some of the best examples of just good all around families that we have met here are Catholic–and in my book actions always speak louder than words. I’d consider homeschooling, but it does seem as though it would be the light under a bowl over here. Hardly anyone does it, and homeschooling doesn’t have a religious bearing like it does in the states.
Okay, one last thing, as I wrote that last part, I began to think about Jesus words as he is preparing his disciples for his departure. He tells them that they are to be known by their love for one another–that this was to be their new command. Implicit in that command is that we are not to be known by anything else. Proven by the fact that Paul argues against circumsion (a mark of identification) and makes concessions for the weaker bretheren out of love. I don’t think we are to be known by anything else–how we dress, our choices to homeschool or not, our politics, etc. Perhaps we spend too much time discussing whether or not we should homeschool, and not enough time asking how we can encourage one another in the Lord. Quite frankly, for some this has become such a contentious issue that “the other side” has become the enemy. And we can’t just pray for the enemy–we don’t get off that easily. We are called to love our enemies. And love in the Christian faith expresses itself in action. What would it look like to the greater community if a homeschool co-op volunteered to read with first graders? Or perhaps volunteered to support a public school teacher with prayer and dinner when she is grading junior research papers. What would it look like to your neighbors if someone whose children are in public school volunteers a few hours a week to watch the children of a mother who homeschools?
Okay, kids need me, gotta go.
Comment by Leslie (November 13, 2006 @ 12:20 am )
Leslie, as a single mom, I can vouch for you that many, many churches (dare I say most) do abandon their vunerable children to the public schools. I had a former pastor tell me that maybe I just “wanted” to homeschool my children and that God did not lead me to do it. In other words, my children were not worth anything to him or the church and he was content to hand them over to the dogs. In other words, children from single parent homes have no hope anyway. He did not dare send his children to public schools, but it was ok for mine to go? (I’m not making assumptions about his thinking; there is too much that went on to explain it all.)
I have talked with many single mothers who have also been told the very same thing. It hurts when you have children, after all they’ve been through, that need to be with their mothers in a safe environment more than anything else.
I was in public schools for all but 4 years when I went to a Christian school (8th-11th). I don’t know why, but my faith was very strong as a girl and I came out with my faith intact, but I did not come out unpolluted. There was so much that hurt my innocence there. It was bad back then, but things are much worse now. I found out how bad when I let my children play with the neighborhood kids who go to public schools. My children heard and learned things that should only be heard from rated R movies. And these were kids that went to church pretty regularly at that! A Baptist girl told my daughter that this country is not free because those of the same gender cannot marry. Yes, it does start in the home, but because other parents are not raising their children right, I CANNOT and WILL NOT pollute my daughters’ hearts and minds by sending them to public schools. When my daughters played with them, I saw marked changes in them and I had to stop the playing together.
(By the way, most children will not tell their parents every single bad thing that happens in school. There was much my folks don’t know that went on.)
I have close friends who’s children do go to public schools and I do not think of myself as better than them. I love them dearly and feel that they are just doing the best they know how at this time. But I do believe with all my heart that Christian children need Christian educations, whether it is by homeschooling or Christian schooling (which had better be a good school at that, because some are Christian in name only.) I think churches should step in and help families to be able to afford to one or the other, as the case may be. If the churches aren’t willing to pay for it now, they very likely will be paying for it later when they are having to deal with a situation where the family is torn apart.
It does sound like there are a rare few public schools that are not polluted, but I truly believe that it is very rare.
Please know that I truly mean no malice as I type- I’m just very, very passionate about this subject and it runs very deep in my heart.:) We do so need to be known for our love for each other and I struggle to show it while sharing my heart on issues.
Comment by Janet (November 13, 2006 @ 3:06 am )
Thank you, Leslie, for taking a minute to write. I understand, now, the reasoning. And no, I wouldn’t ban you for disagreeing with me or having another point of view. In fact, I asked for and appreciate the response.
I never thought about Moses as an example. Naturally, I’d argue that exceptions don’t prove the rule, but your argument makes me open to the exceptions. God did not “allow” Moses’ circumstances; He ordained them. Thank you. I’m going to think about it.
No, I’d say that it’s better to tell the most affluent Church in history (and myself) to, “Repent!”
Difficult situations with many layers don’t usually get solved on the internet. I find that internet discussions usually focus on all the exceptions, rather than norms. Ergo, the best way to approach a matter is, “What does the Bible say about “x” ?” Then, after that is established, we say, “OK, God wants us to do “x” —how do we best apply that in this difficult situation?” The Bible contains all that we need to live a godly life. May God grant us wisdom to apply it.
Everyone talking about the subject has a dog in the fight, and so, we resort to ad hominems, anecdotes, and generalizations. The astute observer would have pointed out that I resorted to an anecdote myself in an earlier comment. The truth is, it is p o s s i b l e that there is a school out there with all Christian teachers and students that are not checking out internet pornography after homework. But then we have to address the problem that it is not the government’s sphere to educate our covenant children. And so it goes….
Is there anyone out there who has drastically changed their life by something they read on the internet? When I found out the truth about hormonal contraceptives via the internet, our life changed dramatically. I have a two-year-old and an eight-month-old now. When I admitted the truth and my sin, it was necessarily going to cost me something. I justified my position based on fear, not faith. And God who is rich in mercy knows that we are weak.
When I admitted the truth, the truth required something of me. It is impossible for the Christian to say, “No, Lord.” If we say “no” to Him, we cannot call Him “Lord.” If we call Him “Lord,” we cannot say “No” to Him.
I don’t think I’ve ever banned or deleted comments here. I let every comment stand and ask that you allow my words to stand on their own. (And let them fall if they don’t line up with Scripture.) I don’t tell people to have a gazzilion children, and I am not a homeschool campaigner (contrary to any impressions otherwise). When we argue “quiverfull” or homeschool only, we create a dilemma for the woman whose husband has said, “No.” Each person must call Him Lord in the situation you find yourself in. (I would have different words for men, but I’m not speaking to them.)
I grew up on the other side, where the grass is not green and life is riddled with hard choices. I have not forgotten my life before I had a lovely family and realize that more people live “there” than “here.” My husband and I see eye-to-eye on most everything but what the acceptable level of mess is. (And of course, everyone knows that cleanliness is next to godliness, so we know who’s right. Every knight has a kink in his armor, eh?)
In the end, we will all call Him, “Lord,” but it is so much better to do it now. I won’t apologize when the cross offends, but where I’ve offended, please forgive.
Comment by Amy Scott (November 13, 2006 @ 10:33 am )