Right where you are
Wednesday, May 2, 2007
I’m moving this comment up here because I don’t want it to get lost in the fray. Another Believer makes a good point—one I agree with but don’t reiterate often enough. His comment is in response to a post I wrote way back, Thinking outside the box. Regular readers will remember the ideas in it because I blather on about it all the time. Here’s the copy verbatim, emphasis mine:
Thanks for the post! You bring up some great tried and true ideas. For most of the world’s population they’d hardly raise an eyebrow. We’ve given up some of the great joys in life in going too far in the direction of individualism. My own family is part Mexican (my mother’s father) and we still hold onto some of the old values, along with our family’s own tradition of military and public service. It is expected that you stay home with the children, at least while they are very young. That you take in and take care of your parents and unwed uncles and aunts when they are old. That you look out for your brothers and sisters and try to live nearby if you can (the old standing joke about you mess with a Mexican, you mess with the whole family has some truth to it!) That faith is central to life and family and time to breathe trumps career any day. I’ve seen the same traditions in Italy, Spain, and the Middle East, and I know it also common in Asia and of course Africa. Combined with a Christian mindset this lifestyle is ideal.
But here’s a point, you needn’t homestead. That is the idyllic version, but really you can live this way in a small town or even in a city if you can find a quiet neighborhood within walking distance of a grocer with small and somewhat run-down houses just waiting for little gardens and front porch socializing!
He’s right that you don’t need 100 acres in the country to live a simple life now. We’ve taken solid steps on our 1/3 acre suburban plot toward building a good life. We live below our means, aren’t rushed, and don’t wish to be the Jones’. We choose our commitments carefully, and that means baseball and church for everyone. While only our oldest sits in the batting order, the rest of us talk with folks in the community, raid the concession stand, or watch the game. I keep the umpire in line and Greg helps in the dugout. We’ve planted plum, fig, orange, grapefruit, pear, and apple trees—all low-chill varieties, and I maintain a vegetable garden when I’m not pregnant and sick. We have a peach tree too, but I think it’s a goner. We can walk to our church.
We sit on our front porch a lot.
Why would we want to move on? We don’t, really, except for one thing. So let me explain the driving factor, as I really believe that a lot of good things can be found right where you are; it’s not found in glossy red barn shot in Hobby Farms magazine. The secret to joy is being content in whatever circumstance you find yourself.
That said, there are a few things that make our community a bad long-range goal for our children. The first is, a ¼ acre lot in a regular neighborhood costs $100,000. That’s without the house. Then when you add in property taxes and hurricane insurance, you are well over the regular price for a house in other parts of the country and you don’t even own a house yet. Building prices are running $125+ a square foot. That’s not living space; that’s your roofline.
Now, this may all change by the time our children grow up, but I don’t suspect the price will go down. Here’s the thing. By staying here, you either force the kids out-of-state, force them into 60+ hour workweeks or dual-incomes, or force them into a lifetime of debt-servicing.
Our situation is a little unique, with Greg recently being able to work from home. The cost of living in our area is 105% of the national average (though that seems low). In contrast, we’ve found several good communities out-of-state at 70%. (Google “cost of living calculator.”) While we can choose to live below our means in order not to go into debt, it makes sense to choose the lower cost if God has not called you elsewhere. When He calls, He always provides, so I would feel fine if we heard Him telling us to stay.
Everyone has their own unique set of factors that cause them to choose where they live: God’s providence, family in the area, jobs, climate due to health reasons, etc. I don’t suspect that everyone will understand or sympathize with my specific reasoning, and that’s OK. It’s unique to us.
Awhile back, someone wrote to me for advice. She said that through a series of circumstances, they owned outright a million dollar house in an affluent town. Her husband, however, was still working like a dog at a blue collar job in town. They couldn’t make ends meet. They were in debt because his salary didn’t cover food and basics for their large family. The answer seemed obvious to me. I told her to cash out of their house, take the proceeds, buy a humble (but large) house in a drastically cheaper area, and retire (or secure another job if that wasn’t feasible). To my knowledge, they didn’t take my advice. It’s radical, but it makes a lot of sense.
Now, every time we’ve planned to go look at property, something has come up. Most recently, my ill health. Perhaps that’s just the way the cookie crumbles or perhaps that’s God’s leading through circumstances; it’s hard to tell just yet. Either way, it’s helpful to talk and think about these things. Perhaps it will give you a creative idea for your own children, even if it doesn’t help you right now. It’s new to me that we don’t all have to grow up, get a job, spouse, and a mortgage, and then work until we’re 65 to service debt instead of our families. My way may not be the way for you, but it’s helpful to continue to think outside of the industrial box, taking small steps right where you are.
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Right in there with you, sister. We started the “process” to try and get closer to family to create that sense of community back in January. We are still here, with no plans to move. I hoped to be enjoying me some good southern humidity by now. All we can say is, God is bigger than this. We are excited to see where, if anywhere, this journey takes us. God’s writing us a good story, we just don’t know the next chapter. So we wait…
Comment by Lora Lynn (May 2, 2007 @ 2:02 pm )
I checked out your comment about living outside the box, and I must admit that I became a little frustrated by it. I enjoy your blog, and I think you are a very good writer and a sincere Christian woman. But I do want to give you a caution about your ideas about orchestrating things so that your children will stay close to you when they grow up. It is nice that you want to provide unique opportunities for them. However, please don’t expect them to stay nearby. My mother homeschooled both me and my brother, and the Lord led both of our families to move far away from her and my father for several years. I am now moving much closer, and this makes us all happy because we’re a close family, but she spent several years being frustrated and unhappy because her subconscious lifelong plan for us had been for us to live nearby. It was very difficult for her to accept that God had led us away for His purposes. We all suffered as a family while she let go of her expectations. The Lord sometimes separates children from parents because He wants them serving somewhere else. Sometimes they have to leave in order to learn how to leave and cleave and create their own families. This is just something I would recommend that you consider while your children are little. I’m trying to learn my own lessons about expectations for my baby boy from the tough experience we had with Mom.
Comment by Ellen (May 2, 2007 @ 2:47 pm )
Ellen,
I don’t think we’re as far apart in our thinking as you might imagine. I want my children to do what God wants them to do. If that means Africa, then they go with my blessing.
Just because your own mother punished her children for not following her plan doesn’t mean that I have to do the same. It’s a wise caution to point out, but I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion.
It’s wise to prepare and plan for the future. All our plans are subject to “if the Lord wills,” and that includes all my “great” ideas. If it works out, great. If not, that’s fine too. Hard to get along with mother-in-laws come in all shapes and sizes; they don’t all live on farms with cherry trees.
Thanks for the caution. I need all the help I can get to learn not to be an insufferable mother-in-law. In the meantime, I’m trying not to be an insufferable mother.
Comment by Amy Scott (May 2, 2007 @ 3:03 pm )
I am from a low-cost area (appalachia) and yes, cost of living is less, but there are no jobs! My mother in law wrote a song about this and here’s a line: “The children all grow up and move away, cause there’s nothing left for them in Appalachia”. This has been true for me and my husband and we’ve seen this happen with so many of our family and friends that we grew up with. We have a desire to move back “home” one of these days but part of our plan is going to include some sort of business that can support our children and their families one day. We don’t expect jobs to be available for our children so we hope to create the jobs. Not that we will coerce them in any way, but just so they will have the option to live and work nearby if the Lord wills. So for now we live here, working at paying off our home, saving/investing money, and getting our own business started so we’ll be ready to go when the Lord says it’s time.
Love your blog, by the way! This is the first time I’ve commented though I’ve been reading since last summer. I think I found you from a link at Life in A Shoe.
Comment by AB (May 2, 2007 @ 3:35 pm )
Amy, I can’t imagine you being insufferable! Love the post. Still hoping you pick VA….
God is helping us make great strides in getting out of the servicing debt thing. I’m so thankful! And we’ve got a piglet coming and our garden ploughed and ready–all great! Some stupid chicken nearly ready for slaying too! Man, those fast growers are really stupid–going for beter breed next time! lol
Comment by Lyn (May 2, 2007 @ 3:56 pm )
Amy,
I was encouraged by this post. After several years living too far from family to fly home, we are greatly anticipating a move in the next six months that will put us near both my brother and his family and (with their upcoming move)my sister and her family. We are all hoping that the concentration of kids and grandkids in one area will lure my parents out to join us. Unfortunately, a place with some land is out of the question for us (barring a miracle), so I am hoping for a 1/4 acre on a quiet street so I can try my hand at gardening and porch sitting. (Secretly I think I’ll be better at the latter!)
Glad to see you posting. You must be feeling better!
Comment by Amanda (May 2, 2007 @ 4:27 pm )
Thanks for sharing this Amy. I value your opinion in this area since I too share your desire to simplify and do what would make the most sense for our family (we have two young children).
My husband and I live were born and raised here in Los Angeles county. Needless to say, it’s extremely expensive to live here and raise a family. There are numerous factors (that’s an understatement ) that have caused me to want to leave this area and move somewhere much cheaper, smaller, etc. Interesting thing is, last summer we finally decided, as a couple (usually it was just me wanting to move) to move somewhere else in the U.S. We were excited and set out on our search. We told family members we would be moving within the next year or two.
Then, my husband got a much desired job offer from the Los Angeles City Fire Department. He’d been looking for a job as a firefighter for three years, all over California. The competition has been fierce. It’s been his dream (he was a personal fitness trainer for 7 years before that, but realized he didn’t want to be doing that for the rest of his working life). This was the first time he was moving on to the background investigation. We couldn’t believe the timing.
He’s graduating from the fire academy on May 11th, and I’m so proud of him.
We’re excited about this job and feel the Lord stepped in and said, “Yes, you want to move, and you’ve wanted to move for many years now. But, I have other plans for you right now. This is where I want your family for the time being.” I would LOVE to move somewhere cheaper and live in a humble, but large house, with room for a garden and land for my children to play. We desire a large family, so this makes sense. Here, where we are now in a small two bedroom apartment and no yard, there isn’t much room to do anything. But I’m trying to learn to do the best with what I’ve got.
We do want to buy a house soon, but the cheapest we’d probably find suitable for us would be 500,000 or 600,000 thousand dollars.
And that won’t get us a very big house or yard. At times I’m discouraged by all this, but at the same time we’re so grateful for this new career opportunity (with one of the most coveted and most skilled fire departments in the nation) for my husband. And, the good thing is that he’ll be able to work overtime very, very easily and get paid much more this way (and still have many days off per month).
We’ll see what will happen in the next few years, but this is where we are right now. God is sovereign, that’s for sure.
Comment by Sarah (May 2, 2007 @ 4:41 pm )
Amy I can so relate! I have yearnings for a quiet place outside of the hustle and bustle of the busy metro area we live in. However, I cannot reject the fact that God gave us our home. We are currently remodeling and the temptation to sell it and move elsewhere creeps up consistently. Still…I can’t deny that God had his hand in our home. It’s the home we love, location we love, 5 minutes from work, church, school (well in June it will be 0 seconds to school lol), doctor’s office, the hospital, my grocery store…to say it’s a convenient location is an understatement. Still…it’s a 9,000 sf lot in an upscale neighborhood. Having a garden and chickens and a place to run and play are not possible. We do have the middle school field across the street to run in so I can’t completely complain.
Despite that…I know that there’s a possibility that God may use our home & my husband to help his people. That’s why despite my natural longings for space, peace & quiet, we stay where we are.
Ultimately Amy, you have to do what you feel God wants you to do. It doesn’t matter where you are…if you don’t have God’s will it won’t work. If you have God’s will…it won’t matter where you are
Hope that gives you some encouragement.
Comment by Taunya (May 2, 2007 @ 8:51 pm )
On the topic of Mexican values…
When I was 19 I lived in Mexico for a few months. I vividly remember one occasion when I was invited out by two Mexican girls who were a part of the church I was visiting. Our intention was to go out for ice cream to tour around the city a little. When I met up with them, however, they told me that first they had to take their mother to a doctor’s appointment. She was not elderly and was able to walk without any problems - and yet we all accompanied her on the bus to the doctor’s office and waited politely with her until it was time for her to see the doctor. The language barrier kept me quiet - I just observed and waited and wondered when (and if) we were going to get our ice cream. Our time was cut short, but it was still pleasant, and I learned a big lesson about honoring and caring for one’s parents.
On the topic of thinking outside of the box…
I am the eldest of 9 children. The first three of us are married and have families and all live within 30 minutes of each other (and our parents). It’s wonderful! As “scary” as the thought of purchasing land and all building together is … I can really see it happening. (hopefully not completely out in the boonies, however!) Do we know that none of us will end up in other states or countries? No. But I am unwilling to let society tell me that it’s “normal” to only interact with our families at Christmas and Easter. The privilege I have of raising my boys with both sets of grandparents nearby is priceless.
Go for it, Amy! Dream big.
Comment by Carole (May 2, 2007 @ 9:04 pm )
I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you about not wanting to live almost your entire life paying a mortgage payment. My husband and I decided to build our way up in life the wiser way instead of paying $300,000 in the end for a $100,000 home. We have only been married for 4 years and have one child and one on the way. We live in and own a trailer on a very nice piece of land. We bought it and paid it off in one year. We have done many wise repairs and will be able to sell it for more than we bought it for and are going to upgrade slightly to accomadate a new baby. We have been working on saving extensively and hopefully within 7 years we will be able to own a fairly nice house without a monthly mortgage payment.
In the world’s eyes we are in a very low income bracket. I do not have a job. We don’t buy extras and we trust God for our needs. He always provides in way that we would never have thought and we’ve not gone hungry. We have such a contentment and there is NO quarreling over money issues. I say it’s the best way to go. Be satisfied where you are now. God knows our circumstances! If we need a bigger house, more food, gas money or anything–He knows. He “clothed the lilies of the field” and how much better does He love and care for me. Too many times in life we try to make our own way…then we fail. We should just let God be God and give Him control! Thanks so much for this encouraging post!
Comment by Esther (May 2, 2007 @ 9:13 pm )
I TOTALLY agree with everything you’ve said. I also wanted to add that we have learned, the hard way after a miserable move to the LA area, that a church family is a wonderful reason to move or stay in an area also. We love our body of brothers and sisters here outside of Houston and so after 13 VERY LONG months in LA we RAN back here! Being with like minded people makes valleys less of a trial.
Comment by Christi Lachney (May 3, 2007 @ 9:30 am )
After working in the fields this week with my husband, our boys driving tractors, my sister bringing meals to the fields, my brother taking a tractor shift, my Mama making meals, brother-in-law (Starbucks Manager) cultivating on his day off, have to say: there’s nothing like a family working together and living close. Cousins and grandparents, siblings and parents all putting hands to work and hearts to God—it simply makes one’s heart burst for the opportunity.
We’re humbled by the gracious gift of this life. All glory to the Giver.
Press on Amy… (But lay low during these woozy days ~warm smile~)
All’s grace,
Ann V.
Comment by HolyExperience (May 3, 2007 @ 10:25 pm )
God has blessed us beyond imagining through my father-in-law.
We live next door to our inlaws on land they gave us (which is the only way we could have built in this community). Growing up I only stayed put in one place for a while, and I never put down roots there because I was very traumatized by being hated in school. The closest I had to roots was at my grandma’s former farm. But I have put down roots here like I would not have thought possible. My father-in-law has a lot of land due to buying it back when it was cheaper. He recently decided to sell some. My husband and I privately ran some numbers but we just couldn’t have done it. Then the appraisal came back for less than half of what we had thought it was, a quarter or less of what my father-in-law originally wanted. And we are buying about [large number I don't remember] acres. (Our in-laws are thrilled, too; they would have been willing to give us this price if the appraisal from the state had come back like they wanted, and they really hated to sell it for so little…) So we are keeping the “ancestral land” (really only goes back a generation, but it feels that way to me) in the family, and have more land than our children could use even if God gives me as many as I want (hoping for 17…)
We don’t own anything outright but my husband is the finance guy and he’s fine with it. Basically it’s something like, if the interest on our investments is better than the interest on our debt, we are on the positive side.
Hey Amy, there is some land across the street from us for sale… Nice neighborhood, except for the dump, the airport, and the cost of living. You can’t walk to civilization, but if you like swamps, ponds, rivers, herons, ducks, deer, skunks, hawks, snakes, salamanders, coyotes, ice and snow, turkeys, bats, doves, robins, chickadees, nuthatches, juncoes, cardinals, goldfinches, wolf spiders, hornets, vernal pools, frogs, mosquitoes, black flies, rock walls, old church foundations, buried glass bottles, mountain laurel, jewelweed, jack-in-the-pulpit, cowslips, mud, wild strawberries and blackberries… we got all that in my (expanded) back yard. There’s something to be said for the city, too, but I am very happy where I am. We even have surprisingly little poison ivy for this area. The only thing I don’t like about this place is it’s in Massachusetts (but the most conservative town here). And everyone has 2.5 kids.
Comment by Young Christian Woman (May 4, 2007 @ 11:30 am )
This point was driven home to me when we moved to our current town. We have always, for 25 years lived way out in the country. I loved country life but in moving to Alabama we moved right smack in the middle of a tiny town. We do not live in a suburb but a small town. The Dr’s office can be seen from our yard as well as the PO. Our kids can be seen playing on our 3 acres everyday by almost everyone in town.
This scenario, which I could have never foreseen, made a way for us to be accepted in the community. We are visible and therefore accepted. I don’t think I would have had the confidence for this kind of living when my older boys were young but right now I just love it.
I almost feel like I have become the patron of small town living even over deep country living. Our town has less than 500 in population though. I honestly think this is more conducive to the agrarian ideal than isolation out of town but of course, it is tricky.
Comment by Cindy (May 4, 2007 @ 12:10 pm )
Just whispering a thought here…perhaps the Lord is simply trying to use this time to convince you and Greg to look into Lincolnton, NC??
Not so bad on the cost of living here, close to the mountains, plenty o’ farming land to the west, small town community, close enough to Charlotte for some city advantages, etc, etc. Enough of the hard sell there. We’re headed there to be closer to my husband’s family and to be able to have enough land to stretch our legs on and try our hand at a small garden. Plus, it’ll get me a teensy bit closer to my own family. (YAY!)
PS - We could really use some good reformed Christian friends added to the area (perhaps a pastor or former pastor with his growing family???) even if we are near the area that named a highway after Billy Graham!
Comment by Alison (May 5, 2007 @ 9:42 pm )
Hey Amy, Been following this blog for a while….missing you on the MOMYS. Would love to have you in KY…..very reasonable land, great PCA church……just an informal invitation!
Comment by lisa (May 5, 2007 @ 10:26 pm )
Thank you for your stories.
Cindy, Someone sent me this link from Franklin Sanders on the subject of community that interacts with your comment.
For those of us staying in urban areas, I often wonder about how we could go about living more simply. What about buying up foreclosed houses on the same street and revitalizing the area with a group of people with the same goals? This builds a physical community (because I believe proximity is important to thriving as one) and can help families afford homes with less/no debt.
I have other ideas, but I figure that building codes would probably interfere.
Thank you for the invitations. We’re not settled yet, so you never know.
Thanks for missing me online, but it’s just not the season for much now.
Comment by Amy Scott (May 5, 2007 @ 10:37 pm )
I just read on “Oak Spring Farm Kentucky” blog, that a 71 acre farm in Kentucky, sold at acution for $25,000.00 recently. It had a small house, and outbuildings. One could add on to the house, or build a new house and live comfortably when you can get a deal like that. It is amazing to me how inexpensively one can live in parts of the Midwest.
I live in a very expensive part of the country, and really don’t want to move, but if I did, I know where I would look.
Comment by nancy (May 7, 2007 @ 12:34 pm )
Oh Amy - What wonderful advice to hear! Thank you for sharing your own family’s personal committment to serve the Lord and one another rather than all the world has come to expect. Though I am only recently married (no children yet), my husband and I have planned since our engagement period that I would stay home when we have children and help provide for our family by reducing our expenses. Sometimes when I think about the future it’s a little ominous, since our extended family will probably think we’re crazy, but we believe we can best serve the Lord and our family in this way. It is encouraging to hear of another family following the same path. Thanks and God bless.
Comment by Catherine (May 9, 2007 @ 10:49 am )
Alison - I just read your comment about Lincolnton, NC. My husband and I are in Winston Salem - not too far! We are a part of a small group Bible Study comprised of fellow church members who are unsatisfied with the surface teaching of the Bible found in so many churches today. We have been studying quite a bit about Reformed Theology in the past few years (could I possibly be a nerd for Spurgeon??) and find it so much more scriptural and God-glorifying than other teachings I’ve heard my entire life. I’d love to know what you are reading/listening to/learning about these days. Our group is reading CJ Mahaney’s Living the Cross Centered Life right now and I’m just finishing up RC Sproul’s The Holiness of God. Awesome books!
Comment by Catherine (May 9, 2007 @ 10:58 am )
Catherine,
And just now I have discovered your post…Is it a little late in the game for me to respond now? Anyway, it’s worth a shot, so here’s my response. I am afraid I haven’t read too much lately. Part of that is my inability to pay attention long enough to get past the first two chapters in any book these days. But, I was successful in reading a few of John MacArthur’s books some time back that started my change of thinking on my own walk with the Lord and really digging into the theology behind everything. Plus, that led me to his GTY podcasts and other downloads of sermons that I listen to fairly often.
I came from a pretty reformed background (or so I recognize now) so this rings very true with how I’ve understood Scripture growing up. But, still without understanding, really digging into, the theology and testing the things which I have learned, it is so easy to slip into the sugary side of “Christianity” and deem everything that is labeled “Christian” as truly that. Now, I really and truly no better. I see the dangers in all of that. To complement that, as I learn more and more, reformed theology exposes the flaws that really are at the core of the sugary stuff. If they believe man has some sort of power to save himself, then it makes sense to dramatize and emotionalize everything to a certain degree. On the flipside, I rationalize that that is poor thinking and “strategy,” if you will, simply because that’s not the way to lead anyone to a truly educated decision anyway. But, that argument is worthless when you see the bigger picture…that they’re missing out on God’s Sovereignty in play. That [understanding God's Sovereignty] has opened up Who God is so much more to me in the past couple years than all the teaching I seemed to miss out on before throughout my 18yrs or so of solid Christian education.
Oh well, I’ve rambled on and it’s even buried here in an old post.
It’s good to know though that we’re not alone. And, I will definitely begin reading more on this subject and more. Just need to get back to feeding the brain! We actually have RC Sproul’s Holiness of God here at the house, so I may just start back there. 
Comment by Alison (May 25, 2007 @ 11:12 pm )