Submission
Sunday, Jun 24, 2007
Two comments/questions arose from my last entry:
1. Amy: how does the verse “be ye subject one to another” fit into the idea of respectful disagreement/submission?
2. Those are excellent truths to remember in any disagreement with anyone, especially husbands. But I have never seen the title of your post effectively dealt with — what to gently, kindly, and graciously say if one’s husband’s thinking is on the wrong track in a certain situation.
Another title I could’ve given that entry was, “Well, what does that passage in Ephesians 5 look like anyway?” There wasn’t any commentary from me last time for two reasons. The first is because it was my point to show that the Scriptures are always sufficient. A plain reading of the text will give us an order of how God does things. Here it is:
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
The second reason I didn’t add commentary is because my time hasn’t come for me to share my experience on the matter. My husband is great, but I haven’t always been under such godly authority. Many of us at some time along the way will find ourselves in a very tough spot because those we must submit to are evil: civil authorities, employers, parents, and even the rare church elder. We can find our comfort and direction here in the Scriptures.
God, in his foreknowledge and sovereignty, knew that we’d disagree. While redeemed from the curse of sin, we still battle it in this life. (Romans 7:7-25, I John 1:8) What to do then? How can husbands and wives love each other and demonstrate the relationship between Christ and the Church here and now?
And so, God created an order. We see that order in the above passage. There cannot be two masters, two captains, two heads.
As for mutual submission, this is right and good. The husband lays down his life, loves his wife, and cleanses her by washing her in the Word of God. The wife loves and submits to her husband. But we haven’t answered the one million dollar question, I know.
What, then, should happen if the wife says, “Go left!” and the husband says, “No, right!” The wise husband will listen to his wife’s counsel, considering it to the degree that she shows wisdom in other areas. By getting understanding and wisdom, she is able to win over her husband. (see also I Peter 3:1-2) But the final word is his word, and he will answer for it.
The Lord made a way for those times we’d disagree. He knew that there’d be times that waiting, splitting the difference, or compromise wouldn’t be options. And so, there is an order because God is orderly. Wives should yield, as God will honor their obedience.
And what of “be ye subject one to another”? Does this mean I hold equal authority with my husband? Consider the verse in its context (which is the same way that we consider all Scripture—in its framework from Genesis to Revelation):
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. I Peter 5:5
Before we are told to be subject to one another, God tells us exactly how His economy works: the younger submit to the older (and likewise, wives to their husbands). He established an order. How interesting that these instructions are back-to-back!
Is God a schizophrenic? Did He just contradict Himself? At first there’s a hierarchy and then there’s a democracy? We know this isn’t so, and so, we understand mutual submission in the context of His whole counsel. To those who lead–pastors their flock, mothers their children, presidents their countries, husbands their wives—they need understanding.
Don’t be hard-headed; instead, be humble. Whether you lead or follow, this is the right way. Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought. And what if your authority is truly a fool? When you must submit, do not think of yourself as suffering under some random authority. Remember Joseph.
God knows all of this, and it is not a surprise. “The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord.” He controls it all. Submit to your authority without sin as unto the Lord. This is an offering to Him. This pleases Him.
Difficult situations don’t require an egalitarian or democratic response. We worship Him and show His glory best when follow His ways. This doesn’t mean this is the easy path, just that it’s the right path.
44 Comments
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“Don’t be hard-headed; instead, be humble.”
Oh how I struggle with this one, especially with my husband. I have lots of room for growth.
Thank you for the encouragment of your words in this post!
Comment by Overwhelmed With Joy! (June 24, 2007 @ 10:54 pm )
Hello Amy,
What great explanation of the post on how to disagree with your husband. What you just posted it very unpopular, but very nesecary for wives (and husbands) to hear. No matter what we think about it, or how many times we look for a loophole, man as head is God’s way and that is all there is to it. We can declare all day long that rain isn’t wet, but does it change the fact that it is?
Take Care,
Trixie
Comment by Trixie (June 25, 2007 @ 6:28 am )
Very clearly put. It does against our natural grain doesn’t it. We want a clear cut easy answer to everything- but God never leaves us guessing.
Comment by Susanna (June 25, 2007 @ 8:08 am )
There have been a few instances where I was actually able–solely by the help of God to keep my mouth shut when I felt dh was wrong–and in those instances God showed him without my help. lol Definitely the preferable route. I do think we can respectfully disagree, say a little bit about that, and then shut up, but its the shutting up we women have trouble with so maybe its just better not to start up at all??? ;0)
Comment by Lyn (June 25, 2007 @ 9:04 am )
Hi Amy,
Just wanted to encourage you to keep up the good work! Your God-given wisdom is a blessing to so many.
(Even people like me in Mississippi!)
Comment by Dene (June 25, 2007 @ 9:22 am )
Amy - I think our country as a whole has totally discarded the part about “submitting ourselves one to another” - as in to those in authority around us. I see it everyday in the form of children disrespecting their parents; adults breaking the law, or gently disregarding it anyway; and what I really hate is the way people disrespect our president, especially celebrities on t.v. (can you say “Rosie O’Donnell?”). We may disagree with many of his policies, but he is our president, and this total lack of respect pains me, but I see it in children with their parents and teachers too, so which came first? I don’t know, but I don’t like it one bit.
C. Hays
Comment by C. Hays (June 25, 2007 @ 10:05 am )
If a husband is loving his wife as Christ loved the church than the times when a wife actually has to submit are few and far between. If both couples in a marriage are diligent in prayer and Bible study and always seeking God’s face in decisions that arise then they will most often be on the same page. The problem comes when our individual walks are not what they should be. Unfortunately, many men take the “wives submit to your husbands” as license to treat the wife disrespectully and in a slave like manner. It’s not about a husband telling the wife what to cook for dinner or how to clean the house. But even if the husband is not doing his part then the wife is still obligated to follow the scripture.
Comment by Mary (June 25, 2007 @ 1:15 pm )
I just want to say that I really, truly loved seeing this post. I am often the “odd man out” in conversations regarding marriage/proper roles/submission. So it is refreshing to know that there are other women out there who still believe God’s word applies to them and their marriages.
I will also say that there have been a few times in our marriage when I have strongly felt that my husband was taking us in the wrong direction, or that he was not fulfilling his role well. All I felt I could do at those points was pray and give counsel where it was welcomed. Some times, he ended up changing his mind (read: seeing the light–LOL) on the issue, other times, he went with his initial choice. There have been times that our family has suffered, at least to a degree, for the choices my husband has made that were not choices I would have made. But God has been gracious to us…He has helped us learn from our mistakes, grow closer because of them, and made both of us seek Him more fervently the next time.
I have had friends on the far ends of the issue…some who say their husband has to make all the choices and won’t say a peep because to do so isn’t “submitting”…some who will barely let their husbands get a word in edgewise because they think they know better. I can tell you that it really pays off to allow your husband to be the leader God has commanded him to be. To step back so he can step up. To allow him the space he needs to make choices, even bad ones, that he can learn from to become a better leader and more like Christ. To hold your tongue. It isn’t easy, but it is right.
Comment by Tamara (June 25, 2007 @ 1:34 pm )
I agree that the order is in place precisely for times when a disagreement may arise. Order is necessary for productivity. And I also agree that God honors obedience.
However, I, too, have seen examples of an overbearing husband ordering his wife around like hired help. I’ve seen women with broken spirits who believed that it was God’s will for them to suffer silently even to the point of physical abuse.
In these situations, I believe the woman is obligated to seek help, especially if the husband is endangering the physical wellbeing of herself or their children. To remain in an abusive situation is not submission, it’s foolishness.
The heart of God has always provided recourse for the helpless or oppressed.
Abuse considerations aside, I agree that the topic of a woman submitting to her husband bears further reminding—there are far too many women who have wrangled complete control away from their husbands and run the family as “head of the house.” There truly is nothing more beautiful than a husband and wife who work together in unity, in humility and in peace.
Comment by Elizabeth (June 25, 2007 @ 3:25 pm )
There is such a wonderful complement in this portion of Ephesians 5 following wives submitting to their husbands: Husbands, love your wives……as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her(Church), that he(Christ) might sanctify her(Church), having cleansed her(Church) by the washing of water with the word, so that he(Christ) might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she(Church…His Bride) might be holy and without blemish.
You see submission ultimately to Christ by both spouses as further understanding is provided in this verse: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife(this includes men and women in Christ) hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” (Revelation 19:7-8 KJV)
If anyone has ever been privy to the characteristics of fine, pure, and white linen, to keep it clean to the point of being spotless and without wrinkle…it is be a supernatural undertaking. Such is the sanctification of the Bride of Christ in that believers are His workmanship. There should not be a time between spouses that are believers in Christ where the wife would be put in a position to be in submission to a husband that is asking her to do other than submitting “as to the Lord”. He’s first going to be submitted(loving himself enough to have the desire of the heart of personal sanctification) and then love the wife as Christ loves His Bride…encouraging her and building her up through his being selfless to be all that she is intended to be in Christ Jesus.
Have a husband that isn’t walking after the Spirit and rather after the flesh? Just one though there are other verses for wives: She does him good and not evil all the days of her life. Proverbs 31:12(in other words, the Lord will use her in marriage whether in deed alone and sometimes through communication that includes gentle reproof so that he is loved by her unto being all he is intended to be in Christ Jesus). Mutual forgiveness goes a long way, too.
Good news, indeed.
Comment by Mrs. Burrows (June 25, 2007 @ 3:36 pm )
After contending and not submitting to my husband this weekend, God had me stumble upon a FANTASTIC sermon on this very subject yesterday. So many answers and clear teaching! I really want to listen to the rest of the marriage series, it so convicted and renewed the spirit. Amy, you kick butt as usual-for those looking for even more specific Biblical teaching I would encourage a listen here:
The Beautiful Faith of Fearless Submission-John Piper
It is a free download availible from http://www.desiringgod.org
Comment by megan (June 25, 2007 @ 3:41 pm )
What a wonderful post and so timely! My husband and I deal with this all the time and it can be so hard. Because I have been saved longer, and he is a fairly new christian, it is easy for both of us to allow me to take the lead…and since I naturally (by the old nature) tend to be bossy, we can get into it quite a bit sometimes.
It is always so wonderful to receive Godly wisdom exactly when you need it, thank You!
Comment by AmyG (June 25, 2007 @ 5:46 pm )
I’ve listened to some of Piper’s messages and read some of his writings…maybe some of these messages by MacArthur to read concerning different family members would be of interest to someone else?
http://portrayingfemininegrace.blogspot.com/2007/04/gods-plan-for-home-family-members.html
Comment by Mrs. Burrows (June 25, 2007 @ 6:10 pm )
oops, there are links to others listed, also.
Comment by Mrs. Burrows (June 25, 2007 @ 6:11 pm )
Amy,
Thanks for posting on this topic. To answer the second question that opened your post, I’m not sure that what to say can be defined in three easy steps. It varies depending on the situation and the husband; what matters more is that we remain gentle, kind, and gracious, regardless of how our comments are received.
I Peter 3:5-6 speaks well to the question of what to do when a husband won’t listen to that gracious appeal:
Sometimes our husband’s choices may be truly frightening to us. But our hope is in the Lord, not in the wisdom of our husbands or the effectiveness of our appeals.
Comment by Julie (June 25, 2007 @ 9:23 pm )
One lady once said something like this: If a husband makes a bad choice in something, he does not sin. He is merely foolish. If a woman disobeys her husband because her husband is doing something she believes to be foolish, SHE SINS. Ouch. God knew very well that husbands would not be perfect. He still said we should obey our husbands in everything. We should learn to trust the Lord.
Comment by Marita (June 26, 2007 @ 8:15 am )
Thanks for the reminder on submission Amy!
My sister recently sent me the link to your blog starting with your posts in Feb on ‘Three, Three and Under’. That is my life!!! How refreshing to read about your experience!
I can’t say I agree with the last comment by Marita. If a husband makes a bad choice it could very well be sin-and calling a bad choice foolishness confuses me. Foolishness is sin is it not? I do agree that a wife sins when she doesn’t submit to her husband but that is not to say that she must go along with foolishness if it goes against God’s athority-His athority is greater than our husbands.
This quote was probably given to make a point but I think it can lead to some dangerous misunderstandings about submission.
Comment by Mel (June 26, 2007 @ 1:16 pm )
Oh, amen, amen, AMEN! I spent too long being hard-headed and self-righteous and nearly ruined my marriage. Thankfully both God and dh had enough grace for me.
Comment by Margaret (June 26, 2007 @ 2:31 pm )
Thanks for asking me to clarify, Diana. Let me answer and then elaborate on a larger point.
No, I wasn’t saying that husbands ought to be older than their wives. The verse was used in another question—and what of submitting to one another? But yet, right before we’re told to submit to one another, God tells us that the younger are to submit to the older. Just saying that God has ways that aren’t our own. He has an order. It isn’t a free-for-all or a democracy. It also isn’t a harsh dictatorship, ruling without loving, gentle guidance.
As was pointed out earlier in the comments, sometimes we abuse this authority and use it as a license to sin. This doesn’t mean that we should bend God’s ways to accommodate all those people who will use it to abuse those under them.
I understand that due to our current culture’s climate, many of us find ourselves having to apply wisdom to situations God didn’t sanction: out-of-wedlock births, raising a family while battling debt, abusive family members, and so on. Hear me out on this, though.
It is one thing to say, “Yes, this is God’s way. Now…how do I apply it to this difficult situation?” It is quite another to say, “Well, some men will abuse that authority and so we must understand that God didn’t really sanction that. What he really meant was for each one to mutually submit, since there is no male or female in the spirit, you know…”
God doesn’t need us to make excuses for Him. When we explain away difficult passages because God isn’t “the Sunday School Jesus” we thought He was, we end up setting up a god in our own image.
Comment by Amy Scott (June 26, 2007 @ 7:10 pm )
Hmm. I just reread my entry above, and it sounds like I was in a bad mood.
I’m not! 
Comment by Amy Scott (June 26, 2007 @ 7:13 pm )
[Admin: edited for privacy...I think this is a good example of : "Yes, I want to submit to God by submitting to those over me, now how exactly do I do that?]
I do understand the concept of submission and agree wholeheartedly with what you have said. I came from an unsaved home but thankfully God led me to a good church in my teens where I was saved over 30 years ago and taught from Scripture and then on to a good Christian college with courses and instruction on the Christian family. I thank God for that — it taught me things I didn’t even know I would need to know.
My father was very big on authority even as an unsaved man, but he went overboard into authoritarianism. He was also an alcoholic with a very short temper and we just learned early on it wasn’t healthy to disagree with him about anything.
My husband is not at all like that and discusses issues and situations with me — he is not at all authoritarian and is very kind and gentle. But I still had the idea for a long time that a good submissive wife never openly disagreed with her husband or expressed a difference of opinion. I know now that’s not the case. [...]
…we were all on a cleaning spree because we were having a teen fellowship at our home, and we had all been really busy and the house needed a lot of catching-up work. My husband had given my oldest son (in his 20s) a job to do with instructions about how to do it. Later in the day he came to me expressing frustration that this son hadn’t followed his instructions and he took it as that our son just willfully disregarded his instructions and did it his own way. Now — I’ve been a mom for 22 years and know that there are some times a child (or even a husband or another lady at church I’m doing a project with) just somehow missed something I thought I clearly said. And my kids have come to me sometimes with something they said they told me about, but I have no memory of it, so that helps me to have grace and not get too frustrated when they’ve missed something I said. Plus this son, though a sinner with a will of his own and not perfect, is not one to just disregard instruction and do things his own way, especially cleaning jobs. So I was trying to express that to my husband to try to smooth things over and help him to not feel that our son was blatantly rebelling. But he seemed to react as though I was taking my son’s “side” in this. He doesn’t normally react that way and I’m assuming it had a lot to do with being pressured and tired.
The other situation is family devotions. We used to have them when our kids were little — probably too young to remember. But somehow we just grew out of it as the kids got older. Part of that, I think, is that my husband’s father, though a professing Christian, wasn’t living for the Lord and was sometimes quite antagonistic towards his mother in her efforts. She was the one who had devotional times with the kids. So my husband hasn’t had that kind of example. Plus he has had a tendency to overprepare — to feel he has to present a challenge that he has studied and prepared for — and he just doesn’t have time. He is a good man and does a great job with talking of the Scriptures in the course of daily life and around the dinner table, applying them to issues and such. But we just don’t have any kind of a regular time around the Word as a family. We don’t even pray together except at meals and during a crisis, maybe before a trip. This has been an ache on my heart for years, not only that our sons aren’t getting that kind of Biblical instruction which they really need, but also that they are not seeing that example from their dad of gathering their family around an open Bible, and so they won’t be likely to do that with their family. I have prayed for years that the Lord would show my husband the need to do that. But it hasn’t happened. Several months ago I started reading to the kids from the Daily Light devotional book (that I have used at the beginning of my devotions for years) after dinner when my husband was out of town — I didn’t really do it with the attitude that “Well, since he is not going to do it I’d better take things into my own hands and do it” — I just wanted them to get the Biblical insturction. He saw the book out and then started reading from it to the kids on nights when he was home. But then it sort of petered out and now he doesn’t any more. I am wondering now if all of that was a mistake — although I think the kids benefited from the instruction and ensuing discussions, it kind of showed up the fact that dad didn’t keep up with it. I don’t know whether to pick back up with it when he is gone or just leave it all alone. My husband has heard instruction over the years in church about how children need Biblical instruction in the home, not just church and school, and how devotions can be very simple and short. But for whatever reason he has not carried that into family life. I don’t know if he even has regular personal devotions, though I know he downloads sermons and listens to them on long drives. Though he is not in general an over-sensitive person, he does tend to be when there is any remote indication that he has failed in some way. So in that vein I am reluctant to say anything. Plus since I have been praying about it I really want it to come from God, not me — I’ve wrestled with the thought that maybe God might want to speak to him about it through me, but then I would feel like I am taking things into my own hands again instead of letting the Lord work.
[...] We don’t argue, we don’t even disagree on much, and we can talk through disagreements on when and where to go on vacation or out to eat, etc., with no problem. But it seems the “big issues” are harder to deal with. And, as I said, when to just be quiet and leave it to the Lord to work and when to say something are things that I wrestle with.
I do mind if you use any of this or comment on it in a post if you feel led to, but please don’t use my name…
Comment by Anonymous (June 26, 2007 @ 7:19 pm )
Yeah, what about this Amy? What about Christian husbands who don’t lead the children in biblical instruction, what, as Christian wives who want to be obedient to God do then? Do we walk away and hope they get it later?. That this is God’s will for them to get it later? Or, do we intervene and teach them the Word ourselves. I know myself that the children tend to listen better if it comes from their father, but what if the father’s spiritual teachings are few and far between for whatever reason? WHAT DO WE DO THEM????
Comment by mrs. ward (June 26, 2007 @ 10:00 pm )
Hello ladies,
what is your opinion?
I have really enjoyed this post and all of the comments. My husband and I were both married before and abandoned by our previous spouses. We both spend many years as single parents and have now been married 2 1/2 years. For me submission has not been exactly hard, just confusing at times. After being “in charge” for so long I tend to “take charge” without even noticing. The previous comment gave me pause to think. We homeschool, so if my husband doesn’t do devotions I can (at least I have been) including them in our morning work as well as Bible study. It never occurred to me to even think that this may be circumventing his authority. I don’t think it is-but my thinking has been known to be wrong
Comment by Kelli (June 27, 2007 @ 7:31 am )
We just had a discussion in our Sunday School class about Eph.5. The question was asked about family devotions. A few people said to just leave it to the Lord to work on your husband. I disagreed. If leading your family is commanded by God to husbands/fathers then if he is not doing this he is in sin. Aren’t we as Christians commanded to confront (lovingly of course
) one another when we see them in sin? I don’t believe this applies only to those who are not in authority over us. If it did then who would confront our pastors? (speaking only in a church setting) If we as wives see our husbands over taken in a fault then it is our duty to confront them and help them. That is the definition of “help meet”. Many men may not know how to lead devotions because they have never been a part of a family who has done them. I believe that as wives we can then ask our husbands if they would mind if we led the children in devotions. This way we would still be under their leadership and submitting to them and devotions would still be getting done. This may be how God works in his heart to show him that it doesn’t take a lot to lead devotions and who knows one day he may start leading that time in the Word.
Comment by Traci (June 27, 2007 @ 10:50 am )
Prv 31:26 says a godly woman “opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.” Paul wrote of Timothy’s sincere faith, which was passed on to him by his grandmother and mother. (1 Tim 1:5) As far as I can tell, commands in Scripture to pass on our faith to the next generation are not specifically directed to fathers (Dt 6:7) or even parents, for that matter. (Ps 78:4)
A mother who sincerely loves and obeys God cannot help but continually instruct her children in his ways, whether formally or informally. Submission to her husband is a non-issue in this area unless he has specifically said, “Don’t teach our children anything about God.”
The relevant topic here, I think, is respect. Am I honoring my husband, even if he doesn’t live up to my image of “Perfect Chrisitian Father” every day? Am I teaching my children to honor him? Am I encouraging him in the areas where he does well? Am I seeking his input and valuing his opinions?
Or, am I just really MAD, and I want him to know it?!!!
When my heart is right, my husband responds well to questions like this: “I was thinking of memorizing some verses with the kids at breakfast. Are there any specific ones you want us to work on?” or “We read in Proverbs today about ________, and our son asked me ________. I wasn’t sure how to answer. What do you think?”
Comment by Julie (June 27, 2007 @ 11:26 am )
I was just on the phone with my dh who is at work. We were skimming over some things that he asked to be made aware of and we ended up talking about–you guessed it!–respect. Our culture has abandoned the trait of respectfulness. I suggested to him that in addition to our family rule of “neatly, sweetly, quickly, and completely” to add “respect God and His Word” and “respect others and respect property.” Our marriage turned around when I realized that submission to my dh was just a starting point and that I needed to HONOR him as well. I used to complain about him and run him down and wring my hands about his latest bungle and then go home and tell myself that I was submitting to him because I did what he said. As it turned out, God was just waiting for me to get a clue before He started making my husband into the man and leader that he could be. I was the problem. When I started treating my husband as a man and not a problem, God started making him into the man I dreamed that he could be. He is not perfect, but he is perfect for me and we couldn’t be happier together. It was (sometimes still is) scary choosing to honor and submit to a man who makes mistakes. But God’s way is always the best way. I never want to go back to the way it was.
Well, I was going to point out that I am older than my husband so should he have to submit to me since I am the elder, just for some levity. I think I will leave it at that.
Comment by Another Heather (June 27, 2007 @ 1:14 pm )
My goodness, there are so many replys to your post! I find the reply s just as good as the post itself! This is a great blog visited by great people! I cant even start to make a comment, sufficient to say that I am a horrible sinner who is in desperate need of help in this particular area and will consider and pray about these things tonight. God is blessing you and blessing others through you..
Comment by Ruth MacCarthaigh (June 27, 2007 @ 3:54 pm )
It seems that some here are saying that a wife is to obey even if her husband asks her to sin?
Shouldn’t we make the clear distinction that a woman is not to sin against God—ever?
Amy, what’s your position on this?
Comment by Elizabeth (June 27, 2007 @ 4:58 pm )
Thank you. I needed this. Not so much for encouragement in submitting to my husband, but because I am struggling with coming to realize how bad most of the authority I had growing up was and how to respecfuly deal with that now as an adult. Thanks.
Comment by Mindy (June 27, 2007 @ 9:25 pm )
A hearty amen to this post, and particularly Comment 26 (Julie) and Comment 27 (Another Heather).
Comment by Sheila (June 27, 2007 @ 11:03 pm )
Sorry to take so long in responding.
Elisabeth, Yes, it is wrong to sin under the guise of submission. I made this point in the earlier entry (in regards to matters of conscience and not sin), but thanks for clarifying.
As far as us mothers instructing our children in spiritual matters, this is good. Ditto what Julie said (#26). There is a way to do it that undermines and another way that shows respect. Avoid saying things like, “Well, since your father won’t…” Ask his opinion on these things, and make it “easy” to schedule in: don’t be running around all the time, settle down the kids, and turn off the TV.
That’s all I have time to comment on for now.
Comment by Amy Scott (June 28, 2007 @ 1:07 pm )
Amy, I love these posts in general….but do you, or anyone here, or anyone you know, have any resources (articles online, discussion boards, etc) for Christian wives who believe in wifely submission in normal circumstances, but who have grave and serious reasons to believe that their husband is suffering from serious mental illness?
Comment by Not normally anonymous (June 28, 2007 @ 7:54 pm )
As in, possibly suffering from paranoid personality disorder (leading to everything being interpreted as a threat and therefore he takes ‘defensive’ action which is leading the family into financial and possibly legal trouble), and also obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (NOT the same as OCD), which means (among many other unpleasant things) that he is completely convinced he is right about everything - he won’t take even the gentlest criticism from ANYONE, in our church or out.
Comment by Not normally anonymous (June 28, 2007 @ 8:01 pm )
Obviously Ephesians is a very sexist man. Ego stroking pervades that scripture in a very “plain” reading as most of them do regarding women. That is such a bunch of garbage about wives and women. I can’t believe grown women believe that and even think it’s the word of God! It’s so insulting to women and girls period but then you promulgate and proselytise this demeaning (to women’s intelligence and then some)flawed, nonsense as ‘God’s’ “order.” On top of it you all want to have a million girls to teach them this garbage too. Unbelievable.
So disgusted,
Nancy
Comment by Nancy (June 29, 2007 @ 12:14 am )
Dear Nancy,
Women have been abused worldwide but it is not the Bible’s fault. Women are demeaned because humans are sinful not because they are influenced by Scripture. People can manipulate things into what they want them to be but that does not make them real or true. Truth stands on it’s own whether it has been abused or manipulate. The Bible does exactly the opposite of what you say. Here are some examples:
Rahab
Joshua 6:17
Now the city shall be doomed by the Lord to destruction, it and all who are in it. Only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all who are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
If the Bible only demeans women then how is it that it gives account of a harlot who’s life (and the life of her family) is spared? Why would a God who supposedly demeans women spare a harlot not to mention that this same God saved Rahab the grief of losing her household? God in love redeemed Rahab and made her a part of His plan of redemption. Rahab was restored and redeemed by the God of the Bible and is later named in the lineage of CHRIST. She went from harlotry to ROYALTY. Demeaning or amazing?
Esther
The book of Esther is an account of how a WOMAN saved the Jewish people from annihilation. If woman are demeaned in Scripture then why does it dedicate a whole book to a woman and the heroic deeds that she did to save her people?
Mary Magdalene
Mark 16:9-10
Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept.
When the Savior of the world arose from the dead He FIRST appeared to Mary. If Scripture demeans women then why let it be known that a woman was the first witness to the resurrection?
These are just three women of the Bible that are by no means demeaned in the accounts given of them. I have never come across Scripture that demeans woman. In conclusion here is the Biblical account of a woman DEFENDED in scripture and her accusers leave with ‘their tails between their legs’ so to speak.
John 8:2-11
Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
This is an account of a demeaned woman not an account that demeans women. In fact it is more than an account of a demeaned woman-it is an account of a redeemed woman who was received with LOVE by the savior Himself as are we all when we believe on Him.
Mel
Comment by Mel (June 29, 2007 @ 9:46 am )
Not normally anonymous, please seek professional help for your family (if your husband will not get it, for yourself at least). What you describe could be a dangerous situation. You need the counsel of a neutral third party who is trained to deal with mental illness.
Amy, have you ever spoken with adult survivors of child abuse? On top of the pain from what their fathers did to them, they also have to deal with the painful question of why their mothers did not stop the abuse.
And even if a husband’s actions fall short of abuse, do you know adults whose fathers were bullies, or were selfish, or mean-spirited, while their mothers stood by and did little to advocate for the needs of their children? Do you think these people learned a great lesson about how God wants women to submit to their husbands?
Comment by Laurie B (June 29, 2007 @ 11:36 pm )
Anon,
Please get help. Seriously. Talk to a leader at your church, talk to a professional, talk to somebody about your situation and get some help. If your husband had a broken back, you would get help for him, right? There’s very little different about having a “broken mind,” only it’s just not as physically obvious (though can be extremely dangerous for you and any children you may have). Seriously. God loves your husband, and your husband needs help. If you are his wife, you can be a vessel to help your husband get that help…even if he doesn’t like the idea. Just take extra precautions so that you make sure you stay as safe as you can through all of this.
Amy,
My friend told me to stop by and read your recent posts. As you know, I don’t really know where I’m at right now on submission/authority between men and women. I *was* hyper-patriarchal, as in following Douglas Wilson’s book, “Reforming Marriage,” to a T.
My husband never ordered me to sin, but he did do plenty ordering. It wasn’t saved for moments where we just couldn’t decide together on something, as you suggested, but rather was a way of life. A head makes the decions, right, and the body follows suit? You could say we were very much literalists. We thought that was God’s way. In the end, I guess you could say it crushed me.
We are recovering now…slowly starting to figure out how to be with eachother as two human beings, not as a leader/follower.
For me, I think much of the problem came from misunderstanding Scripture. The word “helpmeet,” for example. I thought it proved a subordinate role–that the man had the mission and the woman was just supposed to help him with whatever it was his mission was (she had none, other than whatever he told her hers was to be). Then I go find out it simply means, “help,” nothing subordinate implied whatsoever (based on it’s use everywhere else in Scripture—especially of God coming to help others, for example). It simply implies that a strong aid is coming to help.
Because of my own (well-intentioned!) misinterpretation, I closed down my own self (with her vision, her dreams from God, etc) and attempted to become whatever it was my husband wanted me to be. One day God came and let me know that I was shutting down Him (and that I’d set my “head/husband” up as an idol, as a go-between between God and myself).
I’d love to blame it all on my husband, but he was just like me: wanting to glorify God and just doing the best that he knew how. He was taught he was to see me purified, like the husband purifies the wife in Ephesians 5…and he’s a perfectionist. I mean, how can I blame him for wanting to make me perfect—he thought that was his calling as a husband, right, and that perfecting me was how God wanted him to love me…reading Ephesians 5 literally, it’s no great stretch to see it that way…it’s there. Douglas Wilson taught us that I was the garden (passive receptor) and my husband was the “husbandmen,” the master of the garden—the garden is to become what the husbandmen says it is to become. Long story short, we bought into patriarchy and it ate us for lunch.
I guess I just wanted to say (to my *friend* Amy!lol-just making sure that stays clear!) that those who do not agree with patriarchy are NOT all being “hard-headed,” or choosing the “easy” path.
There are those of us who *did* choose the hard path of submitting to a fallen man when it hurt them beyond description. They did so because they believed it to be God’s will, and they were willing to endure because they wanted to honor God more than they honored their own mind’s shock and rage, more than the pain of those they loved, more than anything else.
When I left patriarchy, it was because I came to an end of myself, found myself in a heap on the kitchen floor of my house one morning and Jesus met me there. It seemed to me that the one walking me out of patriarchy was Him, NOT my own emotions (that were in GREAT turmoil, in complete fear that I would incure God’s wrath by leaving patriarchy, etc) and NOT a desire for an easier path (because maintaining status quo would have been FAR easier).
As I later went through the Scriptures with a fine-toothed comb, I felt like blinders fell off of my eyes…I did not see “Reforming Marriage” in the Bible, but something radically different…Love.
I do not know what I am (egalitarian or complementarian) right now, as I feel I am in more of a “becoming” stage…I guess what I sort of grimace at is the broad brushstroke that says, “All who do not see it this way are decieved or in rebellion.” I would posit that there is a lot of Scriptural weight on the side of those who do not agree with patriarchy. We may see the Scriptures in a slightly different way, granted, but it is no less Scriptural. It’s simply a different opinion about what they are saying.
Much Love to you,
Molly
Comment by molly (June 30, 2007 @ 1:52 am )
Never have I seen a group of people so willing to concede the power that is rightfully theirs.
Be proud in who you are, and when you feel you are right, do not submit. Marriage is a partnership, not an ownership.
You were given intelligence and the ability to form your own opinions for a reason. Not using these gifts is a discredit to your maker.
Comment by Kevin (June 30, 2007 @ 5:35 am )
What a lot of discussion this blog has brought up - this is obviously very important to many of God’s followers. I would like to put in just two cents.
As I see it, the big problem for some (and me sometimes) seems to be when the husband is not representing a loving Christ to his church, as the passage describes. Of course when he is, everything is perfect, and the woman is not “conceding her God given power”. But nen are not perfect. Does that mean then that when I come across a man who’s making a mistake, whether he is my husband or a lady friend in error, that I have a right then to disrespect them? Of course not. It is the same in my home as it is between brothers and sisters - and co-workers. Opposing opinions require respect and thinking not more highly of ourselves than we ought to think, and thinking more highly of others. If my husband is making a mistake, and he will not listen to my “intelligent” council, then that is his choice. If I am making a mistake, and I will not listen to his council (whether intelligent or what I might think is foolish), then that is my choice. In both cases, our choice may be simply making something harder than it needs to be, inconsequential, or leading to a sin which the other of us was trying to steer us away from. The difference is, that he was given the responsibility to care for me, and when I disrespectfully disobey his council, especially in the cases of something inconsequential, I am demeaning him and taking the responsibility that he was given for myself, as if he is some baby that I must care for. Is that what I, as an intelligent person, am supposed to do with my opinions?
My point is supposed to be: that there are more ways to be submissive to one another than just “conceding God given power and intelligence”, patriarchy doesn’t mean that a woman must become an ignorant slave. It takes intelligence to be able to live among other people in the first place - to use the intelligence that God gave you to bring out the man’s self-confidence so that he will take on that role that Christ gave him an example to be. It’s not easy, but I’ve seen women do it - not in a “crafty, sneaky” way, either. And their husbands are very grateful that they were helped to be all that God made them to be.
Comment by LisaM (June 30, 2007 @ 10:53 am )
Dear Anonymous,
I don’t know of any discussion boards or virtual resources to help in your situation. Like Molly said, for medical conditions, I hope you will seek medical help for your husband. I would guess it’d seem overwhelming if you don’t know where to begin, but please ask someone who knows your family in confidence to help you figure out where to start. We are all rooting for you; don’t be afraid!
******************
To those who think I’m off-my-rocker, please understand that as a serious Christian, we are committed to living according to the Bible. We see the Bible as our final authority, and so, applying contemporary thought to Biblical passages doesn’t make any sense. They are opposites. God says that He is in charge; our culture says that the individual is autonomous. They can not both be correct; they are not both true.
God’s ways are not our ways, and so it makes sense that we live our lives in stark contrast to those who do not believe. It is the way it ought to be. The broader culture mocks Christians for their hypocrisy, but yet when Christians seek to avoid that duplicity, they are mocked for their ridiculous (Biblical) ideas.
We believe in an ultimate Authority; you do not. How we think about these things affects our behavior. If you choose to reject Christ, then I understand your rejection of what I have written. However, I hope you will not wait too long to acknowledge the Lord as the one who created you and died for your sins.
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Laurie, As an “adult survivor” myself, I have these sorts of conversations more than usual.
There are many lessons to learn in situations like this, but cowering in fear is not one of them. The abuse of authority doesn’t negate the Biblical value of authority. In the situation you describe, the woman has a duty to protect her children, the least of these, and she is culpable as well. Standing by while children are abused is not submission. The woman is not honoring her husband in godly submission; she is showing a lack of faith and strength with her cowardness. She sins with her omission of doing anything: “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”
It is possible to recover from abuse. It is possible to for men and women to grow into healthy, God-honoring people with correct views of gender despite their earlier abuse. I know this.
We must take our cues and worldviews from the Bible and not from earlier experiences or misappropriate doctrines on the subject. God is not to blame for their sin. We ought not to rewrite His Word because of the misuse by others.
This is painful to work through, and some people take longer than others to process it. I don’t intend to write emphatically because I am unsympathetic. The opposite is true. I understand abuse too well, but I also know that God is there to make us whole.
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Molly,
[For those who are reading our conversation, you have to know that Molly and I go way back (in internet years anyway). ]
The problem with this discussion and others like it is that the terms aren’t defined. By my post, you attribute “patriarchy” as something I subscribe to, which I never mentioned—which may or may not be accurate. (Fair enough?) I think using shorthand makes discussing the passage in question more difficult. Generally, I enjoy some labels as it’s a quick way to say a lot of things in not-too-many words.
For example, I don’t mind saying that I hold to a “reformed” doctrine, as it’s a fast way to see where I’m coming from. I also call myself a “pessimist” with some blazing accuracy, but there are always exceptions and judgment calls. I’m very careful not to refer to myself as an “environmentalist,” but I’m still sympathetic to a good stewardship of the earth.
Due to the internet, I suspect I could get several definitions of “patriarchy” but it’s hard to know which one is the real definition. I don’t see the term “patriarchy” used in the New Testament, and therefore, applying the current Christian subculture and all its intricacies isn’t really fair to addressing the Scriptures at hand. Fair enough, again?
To be honest, without the internet, I would not have a clue about the subculture you’re referring to. Where we live, women don’t cover their heads, have lots of children, or walk around in dresses. It’s just not heard of.
Perhaps I misspoke—emphasizing the wife’s role and not the husband’s—and yet, I suspect we’d still end up in this spot. Jesus, our perfect example, was a servant. We see that He washed His followers’ feet. This is not a tyrant, ordering his subjects around the house. He accepted the children on His lap and didn’t retch at their presence, shooing them over to the women as their sole responsibility. Who wouldn’t want to honor and rest in His leadership? Men should pattern their leadership after His example. He is safe and good and just and right!
The bottom line, again, is that we live with one another. We sin. We need wisdom to deal with each situation as it arises. There isn’t a five-step formula to navigate “how to get along in a marriage.” We need humility and to love each other a lot better. Each woman should ask God how to do this. God will help us, as He will not command us to do something without giving us the means to obey Him.
Molly, you’ve used the term “feminist” in reference to yourself before. You’re not (so far as I know you). You’ve done well to unplug and step back from the noise and babble of all this. God is doing a work in you. You love Him, and this is good.
I fear that you have emerged from “one side” and swung too far to the other in reaction, but I suspect that you are still just finding your place. Let the Scriptures be our guide!
This whole discussion reminds me of the importance of reading through the Bible chronologically, as opposed to sitting around studying “pet doctrines.” The whole counsel helps us understand God’s ways, as opposed to plucking out one verse and trying to apply it.
That’s all for now from me. Love to my friend, Molly! ~Amy
Comment by Amy Scott (June 30, 2007 @ 11:15 am )
This is for Nancy. I know how you feel and where you are coming from….but you, like I previously, may not be clear on what the Scripture is saying. Consider:
The Bible does not say man is the head of woman. It says the husband is the head of the wife. The position of husband is like the position of a manager in the workplace. Surely you’ve had a job in the workplace where you submitted to a manager of boss. Did you feel demeaned having to submit to your authority positionally speaking? Did you believe that you were “less” or “2nd class” in doing so?
The position of husband as head simply means husband is accountable to God and responsible for wife and progeny. It has nothing to do with intelligence or “class”, etc. whatever.
Understand that wife positionally is accountable to husband, but as a woman and human being she is accountable to God.
Wherein understand…obedience to God encompasses all that we do/are.
I finally learned that if I have a problem submitting (which mans to “put under” as in put myself under another’s authority, not put under in the sense as “less than” or “2nd class”) to my husband (as in position) I have a problem submitting to God (the instruction comes from Him).
My husband is less than perfect, not unlike many of the “bosses” I’ve had in the workplace whose authority I respected positionally and submitted to because of their position and not their performance. But, while my husband is my head in the marriage, he is not the ultimate head…the Lord is the ultimate head. And many is the time I’ve appealed to the Lord when I’ve felt that my husband didn’t treat me right or make a good decision and refused to consider my concerns (similar to the workplace, huh?) and do you know what happened? God intervened and, so to speak, put my husband in his place so much better than I could have done. Sometimes this was almost immediate, othertimes it took longer and I endured the situation knowing I was doing my duty as wife….similar to the times in the workplace I did jobs I did not like or want to do.
Be assured that God will protect wife when she submits to husband…because in so doing she is submitting to Him/God.
As Christian women we have the free will to follow the plain instruction of the Bible, or we can refuse and “kick against the pricks”…but I guarantee you…you will end up with sore feet. God who loves you dearly has designed a plan for your greatest benefit and it will bring you joy when followed and bring Him glory.
There are those who have put their own wrong spin on the Scriptures,for their own agenda…empty your head of preconceived thinking, and study the Scripture with an open mind and heart for understanding…what is God saying and how does it apply to you? Be careful reading books about what the Bible says…read the Bible itself. Be careful to whom you listen.
There are many “words” out there in the world…and any “word” that contradicts the WORD is anti-Christ and not to be believed…if you do believe the “word”/anti-Christ (that which opposes Christ) you will be deceived, as Eve in the garden and humankind through the ages.
In the workplace if we have a job we strongly dislike or hate we can leave it for another. But marriage is a convenant between a man and woman and God, and is not to be entered into lightly. When you married/marry you cast your lot with your husband and he with you. When the tough times comes, and they will, we need to remember it is the marriage covenant we are honoring. There are times when I feel less than loving toward my husband, and making the marriage promise/covenant the priority gives me perspective.
God hates divorce although he does allow it in very limited situations and does not do so lightly, and only because of the hardness of men’s hearts….and I personally believe, as in the case of adultery, for self defense…STD’s and verneral diseases can kill you.
I speak from 39+ years of marriage. Hope this helps you.
Comment by Cathy (June 30, 2007 @ 1:26 pm )
Amy,
I am GREATLY burdened about this issue right now…thought you and your readers might enjoy the series I’m currently doing on marriage on my blog. Sticky stuff to our culture, but God’s way is the only way!
Comment by Kelly/Word Warrior (June 30, 2007 @ 5:50 pm )
your summarizing thoughts in the comment section are absolutely well said.
Tragedies and human sin and the twisting of His original design does not change His intent. It does not change the goodness of his plan. Instead of seeking a “way out,” we need to say, how can we live his plan out?
And trust me when I say, I’ve seen and experienced a lot of that twisting myself. That just means that humans have messed up - not that God failed.
I’ve been thinking, too, that if we are going to try to explain away the husband/wife thing, then we need to do away with all of the other authority structures, too. No more parents being in charge of children. For really, they are worth just as much as we are! (And they are! It’s just that they are placed under their parent’s authority for a time.) The boss/worker authority needs to go, and the teacher/student as well.
I fear that in seeking something we are “comfortable” with, we confuse roles with “worth.”
In my own marriage, the “submission” thing is quite subtle. My husband is a kind, gentle, patient, servant leader of a man. I often give him the gift of submission and authority without him even realizing it. He has never sought to demand it nor misuse it. He’s a good example for all men.
Comment by Holly (July 3, 2007 @ 11:15 am )
I’m not married and I’ve often had problems with the submission issue as I’m very strong willed. I’m glad though to have read about a lot of kind husbands on here that don’t demand or misuse their authority, and that greatly relieves me and puts me at peace.
Comment by Anon (July 17, 2007 @ 1:54 pm )