Made for another world
Monday, Aug 6, 2007
As a Christian, I answer a certain question every morning when I wake up. I don’t always think about it, per se, but it’s always there. That question I answer aloud, through my actions, decisions, and what entertainment I retire with in the evening if any, is, Since I believe, how should I live? Or in other words, I believe, now what?
Marva Dawn discusses the idea of Christians living as an alternative, parallel community in her book, Is It a Lost Cause?: “To be parallel keeps us from being so alternative that we don’t relate to our neighbors…” and by this, she means, that we live, work, and play in the same society alongside others for the good of the Gospel, and “…to be alternative prevents our parallel line form moving closer and closer to modes of life alien to the kingdom of God,” and by this, she means, that our music, poetry, songs, entertainments, prayers, and culture are not just a bad rip-off of the secular form, but a radically God-centered alternative. It is other-than.
In other words, we ought not to take our cues from the broader culture and Christianize it, but that we ought to create, live, and enjoy another one. After Marva Dawn states the obvious, I was thinking, “Wow, what a great insight,” yet the Bible doesn’t come near to teaching otherwise. Our evangelical culture is far removed from a Biblical one; we are hardly distinguishable from the world (browse my sidebar links).
In his preaching this past Sunday, my husband asked, “If someone were to come into your home, would they be able to tell you loved Christ by the books on your shelves, the show on your TV, the way you spend your time?” Does the way that I spend my money reflect that I am living for another world? As recipients of His grace, we are made for His glory and our obedience flows out of love for Him: “In the future, when your son asks you, ‘What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the LORD our God has commanded you?’ tell him: ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand.’” (Deut. 6:20-21) Put another way, we were blind, but now we see.
This week a friend told me the story of some karaoke fun at a church function in which the teenage girls took the occasion to sing all their favorite Britney Spears songs. Some parishioners protested, as such things weren’t fitting for a church function. The question, though, is not why this was allowed at a church function, but why do our girls know and rehearse all those lyrics in the first place? Is this OK so long as it’s at home in our bedrooms?
We are a “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people.” (I Peter 2:9) When did good orthodoxy (correct doctrine) become enough, replacing orthopraxy (right living) in its stead? If ideas have consequences, then it is fair to say that I really believe if there is no evidence? And this is the heresy of our modern churches– that Jesus can be your Savior but not your Lord.
There was a time that I would’ve said that all this sounds like a bunch of legalism justification. But now, I am learning to understand more of what Paul means in Romans 6: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”
I too am a Marva Dawn fan. Our culture (both American and evangelical, as Amy alludes to) is obsessed with the idea that life is not worth living if it is not personally satisfying. Marva Dawn has had a tough life, and she labors under no such illusion. I try to reflect often on whether my daily life demonstrates an understanding that my inheritance, and thus my satisfaction, is shielded for me in heaven, or if I am trying to manipulate circumstances to satisfy myself now. Reading Marva Dawn has helped me in that endeavor. Also, Amy’s last paragraph reminds me of some pastoral advice I received years ago to read the book of James not against a background of “faith and works” but against a background of “immaturity and maturity”. That proved to be good counsel. Amy, how do you find all your sidebar articles? Occasionally I peruse your sidebar archives. Sometimes I laugh and sometimes I want to cry, but I always learn something (even if it is only, “people like that actually exist?”)!
Comment by Emily (August 6, 2007 @ 1:47 pm )
About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 2004, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages . God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].
PEACE BE WITH YOU
MICKY
Comment by Micky (August 6, 2007 @ 1:52 pm )
A hearty amen to all that. My husband and I did not become Christians until we were adults and prior to that time, had an unbelievable collection of rock music. We of course promptly pitched it in huge contractor garbage bags after accepting Christ and being convicted about our music. Some friends thought we’d like “Christian” rock, and after listening to it thought it was just a cheap imitation of the real thing. We wondered why people listened to this lame stuff when the world does it way better, and why shouldn’t they? They can devote their lives to rock, they can be controlled by it, and it doesn’t interfere with their conscience or their God. It is, after all, about the music, not the lyrics like most Christians would have you believe. I don’t see people listening to plain spoken lyrics on tape.
We were looking for something different, not just in music, but EVERYTHING. We, like you said, were not looking for a bad rip-off of the life we already led. God was leading us OUT of that, into something wonderfully different, wonderfully fulfilling. And God willing, we’ll never look back. Believe me, if you’re trying to lure the world to God with watered down music or culture, I doubt it will work. They’ll be content to stay with the “good” stuff.
Comment by Ginny (August 6, 2007 @ 1:58 pm )
I’ve been mulling a blog post around in my head every since a guest teacher in our Sunday School class yesterday. His message was “take a first class ride into heaven” (as opposed to 2nd or 3rd class. His premise was that good works get you into heaven and he alluded that the more good works you perform, the better your chances of a “first class ride” into heaven. My husband and I, less than a minute out of the room, agreed once you’re saved, your saved. And that God doesn’t tally up “good works but rather how you live your life. Does teaching a Bible study 3 nights a week count towards a first class ride, even if it keeps you away from your family until 10:00 at night? We don’t think so. And your post here today echos my thoughts. It’s not what you do only at church that matters. It’s how you live your life that really counts.
Comment by Jill@Who Could Ask For Anything More (August 6, 2007 @ 2:17 pm )
Wonderful post. I was encouraged by some it and convicted by other parts. And that’s exactly what sound doctrine is supposed to do. As usual, you did a wonderful job!
Comment by terry (August 6, 2007 @ 3:20 pm )
“And this is the heresy of our modern churches– that Jesus can be your Savior but not your Lord.”
And *this* is what’s it’s all about, right? At least your post is, anyway.
*This* is what we should strive for. Everything else *should* fall into place. That’s the *idea* anyway.
Comment by Andrea (August 6, 2007 @ 3:39 pm )
Having just read ALL GOD’S CHILDREN AND BLUE SUEDE SHOES, these are obviously things I’m thinking about lately too. I don’t think most people realize just how deeply pop culture is in the modern church. Just the fact that there has to be something geared especially for every age group stems from this. But to get them to see it? It overwhelms me.
Comment by Lyn (August 6, 2007 @ 3:42 pm )
Amen! It’s a daily battle of the heart (daily, moment-to-moment) to die to self and live as unto Christ. In our recent struggles, I’ve been incredibly tempted to give in to lies and live “as the world” lives…..instead of fighting for sacrificial living, my flesh wants to have selfish gain. : ( It’s just the reality of my heart condition. It’s an ongoing battle that I must fight or I will blend all too well, and THAT is a wasted life, indeed.
Comment by shawnda (August 6, 2007 @ 4:22 pm )
Wow. This is a topic that I have struggled with for a long time- my whole life, in fact! I wasn’t allowed to listen to secular music at all growing up. Instead, I could only listen to Christian music. Of course it wasn’t long until Christian music started sounding exactly like secular music, just better lyrics. Truthfully, that has never bothered me. I don’t believe that Satan owns any particular style of music.
However, are we separate? No. The church does a horrible job of separating themselves from the world. I admit it…I love my tv, music, books, etc. And while most of what I watch, listen to, and read is considered very tame by worldly standards, there is still much room for improvement.
So what are we to do then? I have relatives who separate themselves so much from the world that NO ONE would want what they have. I don’t want to live like them and I’m a Christian. I can’t imagine it’s appealing for a non-believer. However, maybe that says more about me and less about them. I don’t know. It’s not something I have figured out yet.
Comment by Melissa (August 6, 2007 @ 4:45 pm )
Amen, amen and AMEN!!!
Comment by Kathy F. (August 6, 2007 @ 5:44 pm )
Thank you so much for the post, it is so needed. It is so sad to see so many Christian justifying sin in movies, books, ect. when it is clearly something God hates. We were convicted with the challenge to measure all of our entertainment with the 10 commandments. This has been a great thing for our family as we have thrown out much of our movies, books and CD’s. It has been replaced with so much joy in loving what Christ loves. We still have so much to grow as I think we are so blind to the sin around us.
Here is a great sermon by Joel Beeke…
I have no idea if that works, if not go to sermon audio and look up Beeke and Why do we still do good works. We were encouraged by this so I thought I’d share
Comment by Mist (August 6, 2007 @ 6:28 pm )
[...] Made for Another World — Amy Scott muses on the question, “When did good orthodoxy (correct doctrine) become enough, replacing orthopraxy (right living) in its stead?” Most of what I’ve read along the lines of “right living” lately has come from those who would seemingly eschew sound doctrine in favor of orthopraxy. I’m linking to Amy because from what I’ve read on her blog over the past however-long-it’s-been, she’s not one to fall for that error. [...]
Pingback by Links for Monday, 2007-08-06 at RickBeckman.org (August 6, 2007 @ 6:32 pm )
The body of Christ, regardless of it’s denomination (or non-denomination) has always struggled to remain separate from the world and refuse secularization.
This is nothing new. Didn’t Paul exhort the early Corinthian church for tolerating blatant immorality?
I don’t think evangelical Christianity as a whole has forsaken right living (or replaced right living with sound doctrine)–but perhaps that’s because I don’t see the body of Christ as splintered.
Evangelicals serve a need within the world in which we live. Think of all the beautiful worship music which has been composed in the past 25 years—most of it springing from the evangelical movement.
Church history seems to move in waves. Since the 70’s we have witnessed the phenomenal growth of the evangelical movement which acted as a corrective to many denominations.
Comment by Elizabeth (August 6, 2007 @ 8:06 pm )
Amy, I hope you don’t mind that I’m adding you to my blogroll.
Great post.
Comment by sara (August 6, 2007 @ 9:09 pm )
Ahhh, and here we have the joys of syncretism. It is so rampant in the church today that The Mad Monk and I have to shake our heads at some of the church junk mail we get on a weekly basis. It seems as if somewhere along the way the sufficiency of scripture apparently wasn’t sufficient enough. Another great post, Amy.
Comment by Michelle (August 6, 2007 @ 10:20 pm )
bravo, Amy…I am amen-ing this post. I think we are living among a Christian culture that not only won’t ask “Am I wholly constrained in my living by Christ?” but sadly, doesn’t even know what constrained means and more sadly would not give way even if they understood. Dying to self does not seem to be taught anymore.
Comment by Jenny in Ca (August 7, 2007 @ 2:59 am )
Great post, Amy. Thank you for pointing me to Marva Dawn. I will be interested to read her writings.
Comment by Tina (August 7, 2007 @ 8:54 am )
Excellent post, Amy. So true - I believe these things too.
Comment by Holly (August 7, 2007 @ 10:35 am )
Great post, Amy. Thanks for the reminder and the spur to be creative for His glory!
“our music, poetry, songs, entertainments, prayers, and culture are not just a bad rip-off of the secular form”
This reminds me of a quote I once heard from Douglas Wilson. He was speaking in regards to Christianity and the culture when he said that “Christians do everything ten years later and worse.”
One of the things that I love most about our church is the emphasis on the doctrine of Vocation. I love how the Lord calls us out to certain works for his glory. The idea of this work being parallel to the culture is novel to me, I really like thinking of it that way.
Comment by Kendra (August 7, 2007 @ 2:51 pm )
Amy, thank you for the reminder, scripture, and encouragement to live “set apart from the world.” As a young mother I struggle with this. I personally stay away from movies, music, etc. that is so called “secular,” but I wonder “how sheltered” to keep my home schooled little girls. Do I never let them watch a comic on PBS kids? Should my husband and I keep them away from all clothing styles that are modest, yet trendy? I would really like to hear your thoughts… I pray daily for wisdom and ask the Lord to guide our steps by the Holy Spirit and His Word. I praise him for never giving up on us, his children.
Comment by Sheri (August 7, 2007 @ 10:01 pm )
My darling and I were discussing this very thing today, so this read is right on time! I could really relate to your comment, Melissa, because I have an extremely legalistic past. Now I struggle with what is enough or going to far, and as I grow and learn in grace, am I becoming more worldly? Will I always struggle in this way?
~sigh~ (((((HUGS))))) sandi
Comment by (((((HUGS))))) sandi (August 7, 2007 @ 10:30 pm )
Amy,
My wife loves your blog and you typically have a lot of great things to say, but I have to take challenge you on this one.
I agree with some of your premise. Yes, Britney Spears should not be part of karaoke night at church–and further I wouldn’t want my daughter memorizing all the lyrics. But I disagree that we should be ignorant of Britney Spears music. We should, on the contrary, know all about popular music, movies, TV, books, etc. How can we be missional if we don’t know where the particular culture we are in is coming from? I’m not saying we absorb entertainment for the entertainment’s sake, but it is incumbent upon us as followers of Christ to reach those around us and that requires knowing those around us.
Pastor James Harleman (of Mars Hill Church in Seattle) has said that as Christians we should never participate in culture to be passively entertained. However, in order to understand the heart and the sin of those who do participate in culture for entertainment, we must be willing to participate in that same culture with an eye to understand and subsequently reveal that false idols that people allow to run their lives.
In Acts 17, Paul presents the Gospel to the Athenians by first appealing to the gods that they have in their culture and by quoting their own poets. Clearly Paul thought it was important to immerse himself in the secular culture around him. He could not have made the appeal that he did unless he was intimately familiar with it’s subtleties. He was a passive partaker in the culture, but he knew enough about their arts, literature, and politics to speak truth into it.
I would commend you to listen to the class lectures from “Apologetics and Outreach” by Prof. Jerram Barrs of Covenant Seminary. All of the class audio is available free here: http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/en/CC310/CC310.asp
Also, for insight into movies I would commend you to Greg Wright and his staff at “Past the Popcorn” http://past-the-popcorn.gospelcom.net/
There is some great work being done by Christians to redeem the culture they’re in and speak into the lives of those around them. Consider Shai Linne’s Solus Christus Project. Shai Linne, Duce the Ambassador, Timothy Brindle, Stephen the Levite and others are producing some of the richest and most theological content possible today and it’s in the form of Hip Hop that they have coined “lyrical theology”. They are taking the culture that saturates their lives and the people they know and using it to convey the truth of Christ. You can’t do that if you run away from culture.
Other people that are doing this kind of cultural engagement and redemption are Tim Keller, Don Carson, and Darrin Patrick
I’m not saying that we all need to be aware and invested in all of common culture. We all exist in a subset of culture that is unique and indigenous. For Shai and the rest of the guys in the Cross Movement in Philly, that means Hip Hop culture. For me, in Seattle, my culture is nerdy-Microsoft/coffee/indie-rock. The bottom-line, is that God put us in specific places to reach those places and those people. We’re never going to be able to do that unless we’re will to take a long hard look at the secular culture around us, and contextualize the Gospel into that particular place, at that particular time, to those particular people. Then and only then will you see real redemption people (and culture).
Comment by Jon (August 8, 2007 @ 1:31 am )
Outstanding post. I write about these issues all the time at my blog, too.
While I believe we Christians must be countercultural in what WE contribute to the culture, I wonder how Francis Schaeffer’s ideal of cultural engagement works within your post’s main point.
Schaeffer contended that Christians must be able to engage culture where it stands, but with the caveat that it not possess us. We can appreciate the creative talents of secular artists, but we don’t have to become like them to do so.
We don’t want a bunker mentality do we?
Comment by DLE (August 8, 2007 @ 2:02 am )
Sheri, Jon, and DLE,
Thanks for taking a minute to leave a comment and for the dialogue. I’m not sure where I advocated a bunker mentality, but please forgive for my communication. It’s hard for me to think I have my head in the sand…as hey, I didn’t even have to Google “Britney Spears.” Just being light-hearted here. But really, I never said that we should be ignorant of these things.
I’ve said many times before that many differences between the sacred and the secular are false dichotomies. Phil. 4:8 instructs us to think/dwell on those things that are true, just, pure, lovely, honest. And so, in this context, Britney Spears can not serve as my passive entertainment, but Josh Groban can. My point didn’t have to do with disengaging, but we should be asking ourselves, “Hey, is dancing around in cheap Britney fashion engaging and winning our culture?” We already know the answer. OK, well then, what if we wear a modest Jesus-approved skirt with a WWJD pattern on it while we gyrate?
We shouldn’t reject these things because they are bad, bad, bad. Instead, we should reject them because our default affections lie in other Person. And in this way, it is entirely possible to engage the hip-hop culture: to know their music, to know their struggles, to know their language—while still taking our cues from the Bible. In the end, Jesus is nobody’s homeboy.
This is what it means to have a Biblical worldview, and I believe, it’s what I struggle to do here on this blog. (Not that I always get it right.) Many of us draw the line at different places; the amount of engagement varies.
Though, I’d argue that in the name of “engagement” many Christians don’t realize they’re being sucked in. I don’t need to watch Sex in the City to understand and engage my culture. What I need to understand is that young people lose their innocence early on and that the pressure to be sexually involved with their peers starts in elementary school.
I’m sure you’d agree. Things like these are taken case-by-case, and I see we agree on Britney Spears too. The danger is not in memorizing a set of lyrics, but rather, in allowing ourselves and our children to nurture affections that only belong in one place.
Let me know if I can clarify my position anymore. I’m also open to seeing if my position needs to change as well. I am very interested in doing my part in keeping the souls of my children. With evangelicals losing more than a large majority of their children to sin, what I’m not interested in doing is keeping on the same path and hoping for different results.
Comment by Amy Scott (August 8, 2007 @ 8:14 am )
I’m kind of wondering, now, if this isn’t one of those posts that have to be read in the context of all the others.
(And Sara, it’d be an honor to be added to your blogroll. Thank you!)
Comment by Amy Scott (August 8, 2007 @ 8:20 am )
Amy,
It seems to me that the best option for our children is not to shield them from the world, but to equip them with the intellects and discernment needed to analyze the culture around them. I think that’s what Schaeffer is saying, too.
When I was at Wheaton College, I witnessed firsthand what happened when both types of kids got away from mom and dad. The shielded kids went wild, while the kids given the tools to navigate culture without winding up its victims did fine.
It is possible to be countercultural and yet be able to work within the larger culture. Sadly, we Christians are doing a lousy job of that today because our leaders embraced the prevailing culture rather than helping us discover a truly Christian counterculture.
Case in point, our work lives are entirely driven by the fallout of the Industrial Revolution and Social Darwinism. They reflect no genuine Christian reality at all. Virtually no Christian leaders today tackle this difficult subject, yet it must be addressed. We need more Christian leaders like Schaeffer who can read the times and help us find the true path toward the Kingdom.
Comment by DLE (August 8, 2007 @ 10:24 am )
DLE,
I don’t know. I think we have already been given what we need as “His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.”
We don’t NEED Schaeffer or Piper or Spurgeon or Calvin. We NEED to take God at His word and do what He says. We NEED to know Him who called us and cling to the exceedingly great and precious promises. For in that knowledge is life, it is abundant life and eternal life, knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.
Comment by Greg (August 8, 2007 @ 11:09 am )
I’m sorry. This is so wrong. I do not have to sit my child in a bar to expose him to the dangers of drinking. I tell him the dangers of drinking in a non-sensual environment (ie my home) where there is no pressure to succumb. It’s called insulation, not isolation. You’d have to be a living under a rock to not be exposed to the world, but to think that you would take extra measures to get out there leads me to think your heart deceives you more than you know. You must like it. I don’t need to know the ins and outs of my neighbors ordeal to help them, I need to know the Savior and point them to Him. Everything else is irrelevant. They need a Savior, not a buddy who understands. That’s part of the problem. We don’t want to stand out. Christ told us the world would hate us. Do they hate you when you’re sitting next to them at the club? No. In fact, you reinforce their idea that they’re not that bad after all.
Comment by Ginny (August 8, 2007 @ 11:09 am )
Dan,
You and I have a lot of the same hot buttons–particularly, agrarianism and consumerism. I used to read your blog regularly back when I had a long blogroll, but my health and situation (almost 6 kids and nauseous all day, every day) prevents me from reading too much anymore. I mostly spend my computer time replying to email.
But to my point, I think we both have homeschooled sons about the same age. And since you’re a wordsmith by trade, I have to nitpick just a little.
You said, “It seems to me that the best option for our children is not to shield them from the world, but to equip them with the intellects and discernment needed to analyze the culture around them.”
Almost everyone shields their children to some extent. Psalm 1 tells us that immersion isn’t an option. We shield our children when they are infants by putting them in cribs, when they are toddlers with a firm “no” and a swat/removal of their hands when they reach for the stove, when they are elementary-aged by not subscribing to dirty periodicals, and when they are teenagers by not allowing them over opposite-sex friends’ houses unsupervised. As some of my children are elementary-aged now, I no longer caution them about the stove. My sheltering decreases, and they burn their hands if they aren’t careful.
I witnessed the phenomenon you’re talking about to some extent when I attended Clearwater Christian College for my freshman year. It’s not my style to theorize where all those parents went wrong when I don’t have teenagers myself, but on the otherhand, I have to learn from their mistakes if I don’t want to go down the same path.
Now here’s the part where I’m supposed to yammer on about legalism, but really, I think it’s about loving Christ and creating an atmosphere in our homes where that’s probable and possible. Playing Britney on our stereo won’t send us to hell, but it sure does make it difficult to have an appetite for another world. To give a personal example, I gave up Oprah several years back for this reason.
Now, I’ve read about giving our kids the “tools” they need, but the tools our churches are giving the youth are not the ones that they need. I’ve never (knowingly) visited a church with a catechism or Scripture memory program, but these are the tools that will keep our children:
Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path.
Psalms 119:11, 18 Thy word I have treasured in my heart, that I may not sin against Thee. Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Thy law.
Psalms 19:The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple.
2 Timothy 3:16,17 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Now, I suspect Dan will agree with me somewhat and some of this is just talking past each other. I don’t think Dan (DLE) is telling us to take our children to bars or anything. He said, “Sadly, we Christians are doing a lousy job of that today because our leaders embraced the prevailing culture rather than helping us discover a truly Christian counterculture.”
Two articles in my sideblog today might be of interest since you brought up the industrial revolution.
Comment by Amy Scott (August 8, 2007 @ 11:24 am )
When I began to date my husband, a strong Godly guy, I knew that he drank beer. He didn’t drink more than one in a sitting and never to excess, but, one day, troubled about it (due to what I had been taught), I asked him, “Why do you drink beer?” I added the caveat, “I thought you were a good Christian.” His answer stumped me, “What about drinking beer doesn’t make me a good Christian?”
Having grown up in a Baptist church (my dad was a pastor), I was used to a set of rules, e.g., no movies, no dancing, no short skirts, etc. I would look down my nose at others who didn’t think the way that I did and judge them as being “carnal” and “worldly.” Slowly, I began to realize that it wasn’t the externals that characterized me as a believer in Jesus.
Of course, the irony is that I rarely go to movies. Many of them offend me as a believer because of the language and content. HOWEVER, on the face of it, I can’t see anything wrong with movies. The same is true, IMO, about music. I LIKE the Carpenters and I LIKE some of the rock/pop songs of yesteryear. Alistair Begg seems to have an affinity for the Beatles (he often references them in his sermons), and my former pastor, a marvelous teacher and dean of a small Reformed seminary in the Bay Area, often talks about Bob Dylan.
Thankfully, we attend a church where sound doctrine is taught and the Word is central to the service. However, we sing songs with a beat in which the drums, a couple of guitars and a keyboard are played. Many of the songs are from the Valley of Vision book of Puritan prayers set to music. My parents would have probably frowned on them, but does that make it wrong? They might be even be construed as having a rock beat.
I can understand your aversion to raunchy lyrics (again, I’m not familiar with Britney Spears’ music), but does having a beat make music inherently evil? I don’t think it does and I think you’d be hard pressed to back that up with Scripture. Does throwing away rock records make one spiritual? Obviously, if you have an issue with them, then throwing them away is something you may want to do, but that is a personal choice.
Jon mentioned Tim Keller and Don Carson. As an aside, Don Carson spoke at the small seminary to which I referred in the paragraph above (we really enjoy his ministry) and I love how Redeemer Pres, of which Tim Keller is pastor, is ministering in New York City. (My son and his wife attended while in New York and were enthralled.) When I was younger, I would have eschewed the idea of helping the homeless. “Why should I help them when they got themselves into a fix?” was my mantra. As I got older, I realized that it didn’t matter how they got there, but that it was a matter of MY heart. Would I show generosity and grace to someone who was in a bind? Would I give and use that as a vehicle to present the Gospel? Would I say “Be warmed and filled,” but not help?
If one wants to, a case can be made for and against anything. We are to reflect Christ in our culture. How that looks may be different for each of us.
BTW, I still don’t drink, but it’s not because I believe it to be sin. It’s just that at my age, beer would probably make me sick as a dog and it wouldn’t be worth it.
Cathy
Comment by Cathy (August 8, 2007 @ 11:29 am )
OK, I’m going to have to crackdown here, even though I don’t usually moderate or participate much in the comment threads. From now on, here’s the new rules. You have to quote the person and then offer your comments.
I’m going crazy now that I’ve reread my post 100 times, and I keep saying, “Did I really say that?!” I’m saying this all in good fun, of course, but I’m still serious!
(You know I like you, Cathy, but everyone’s starting to gang up on me here.)
Comment by Amy Scott (August 8, 2007 @ 11:37 am )
Just as a funny aside, I dismissed my future husband as “not very spiritual” when I met him at a Ligonier conference back in 1995. Why? His Bible was small, and I figured he couldn’t possibly read it regularly with it having all that small print.
Comment by Amy Scott (August 8, 2007 @ 11:42 am )
Sorry, Amy, I wasn’t quoting you or anyone else. Please forgive my faux pas. I was responding more to the comments about lyrics and the like (which are plenteous) that followed your post.
I loved the anecdote about your husband. What a hoot.
Dissension is good, Amy. You’ll weather the storm.
I’m off to walk. Wish me luck. Uh, oh, I can just hear my dad now. “As Christians, we don’t believe in luck.” I know, Dad, but wish me luck, anyway. I HATE exercise.
Comment by Cathy (August 8, 2007 @ 11:50 am )
I think Cathy was referring to my original post with regard to the rock music. Oops. And I was referring to Jon, not DLE, when Jon quoted some pastor as saying “in order to understand the heart and the sin of those who do participate in culture for entertainment, we must be willing to participate in that same culture with an eye to understand and subsequently reveal that false idols that people allow to run their lives.” Sorry for not clarifying that. The only thing I myself am a little confused about is all the name dropping in the comments. I have no clue who these people are, and frankly, don’t care. Could you all (with exception to Amy who has done a awesome job of defending her position) please, please give Scripture to back your arguments, not names and quotes.
Comment by Ginny (August 8, 2007 @ 12:00 pm )
Not post…I meant comment. Sorry.
Comment by Ginny (August 8, 2007 @ 12:02 pm )
LOLOL! Oh Amy (comment 32) you just made my day! Now THAT was funny!!
Um…this whole “debate” is humorous to me. I think we’re all saying the same thing, essentially.
We want to raise our kids for Christ w/o having them be defiled/victimized by the world. HOW we do that is never going to look exactly the same but we all have the same Heavenly Father and there is this little thing called GRACE, so what are we worried about?
And Ginny (comment 34) I don’t need a verse to back that up!
Comment by Elizabeth (August 8, 2007 @ 12:48 pm )
Hey…
I have to pop in and eat some humble pie, as I just remembered that AWANA has some Scripture memory. If I start going on about how light-weight it is though, I’ll just start to sound really, really CRANKY. (Am I cranky?)
And as a further postscript, I overlooked Greg’s small-print Bible after he quoted the whole book of Philippians for me. It was a beautiful moment. I was like, “You are so hot; you’re not a heathen after all,” but I didn’t say it.
Comment by Amy Scott (August 8, 2007 @ 12:56 pm )
[...] 8, 2007 music to p*** off your parents Posted by sara under Uncategorized I read this post over at Amy’s Humble Musings to my Husband The Unbeliever last night and he agreed wth it. He [...]
Pingback by >> toward the mark (August 8, 2007 @ 1:18 pm )
I totally get what you mean about your husband quoting Philippians and your ensuing thoughts. I already mentioned that my husband is a brainiac, not to mention sexy, and I love his intellect. In fact, sometimes, I’ll just say something like, “Oh, Honey, just let me sit and watch you think.” He’s very cool.
Ginny, I think that’s a biblical notion, i.e., loving your husband and I can back it up with Scripture. I just don’t have it on the tip of my tongue, but I KNOW that Ephesians makes mention of respecting your husband. Unlike Greg, though, I can’t quote the whole book of Philippians!
It’s all in good fun…now, back to typing with one finger and holding my grandson.
Comment by Cathy (August 8, 2007 @ 1:32 pm )
The context of my comment (#34) was about name dropping to prove a point insteading of basing their position in Scripture. I was speaking to those people, mainly DLE and Jon. Cathy, I don’t remember you quoting anyone.
This is getting quite nitpicky. And even if I was speaking to every person commenting, is it too much to ask that we know why we stand for what we do? I can’t imagine going through life being “pretty sure” about God’s commands or His will for my life. I’m not saying we have to memorize every Scripture (although a worthwhile goal) in order to live godly lives, but Jon and DLE obviously had time to cite long quotes from men, when it would have been more effective to quote Scripture. Except I doubt there is one that would fit the occasion without some serious twisting.
Cathy, yes loving your husband is biblical, and I respect and love mine, but would never think of condoning his sin. That doesn’t mean it’s my place to let him know all about it, because we can convince them without a word according to 1 Peter 3:1. We are to sharpen each other, be a help to them, not an enabler.
Comment by Ginny (August 8, 2007 @ 2:22 pm )
Ginny,
I was completely joking with you. I should have used a smiley face icon to denote that. That’s why I said “It’s all in good fun.” I was responding to Amy’s afterthought about thinking less of her husband because of the size of his Bible. She was responding to what I said in the first paragraph of my comment (I mistakenly called them posts–this high tech lingo is killin’ me) with regard to my preconceived idea of what my husband should look like as a Christian.
Please forgive my flippance. I wasn’t being nitpicky, but sometimes, in writing, it may not come across as joking. I regret that.
I don’t understand, though, your comment about “condoning his sin.” If you have time, would you clarify that?
Thanks,
Cathy
Comment by Cathy (August 8, 2007 @ 2:48 pm )
Amy: lol, Greg didn’t need to carry a Bible at all! He had it hidden in his heart!
Cranky? I haven’t read cranky in any of your responses. Pregnant, maybe. But not cranky.
Ginny (comment 40): It’s all good. I wasn’t picking on you. I admire your firm, uncompromising stand. Good for you.
Understand also that some of us come from a different life experience (we were born & raised in Christian homes), so our perspective on “non-essentials” may differ from yours.
And really, it’s OK.
Comment by Elizabeth (August 8, 2007 @ 3:03 pm )
Hi Cathy,
After reading and rereading your comment #39, I finally get it. I’m such a dummy sometimes. When you addressed me by name, I thought you were for some reason referring to comment #30 but I get it now. Well, anyways, about the sin issue, I wasn’t trying to say that your husband was sinning per se, although I believe there are plenty of verses that would exhort us, even command us, to choose alternative beverages (Prov. 20:1, 23:29-35, Rom. 14:21 just to name a few). What I was trying to say in effect is that just because someone is a Christian, whether husband or not, doesn’t give us license to justify or base our actions on their lifestyle. We each will give account before Christ for what we do or don’t do. Maybe I misunderstood you. It just seemed that you were excusing behavior as if it were separate from loving Christ. Our behavior should flow from our love for Christ and His Church. Ok, and I just have to add this (sorry)…music is not amoral. Ok, I’m done.
I’m sorry if I responded irrationally or hasty.
Comment by Ginny (August 8, 2007 @ 3:21 pm )
@ Greg,
I respectfully disagree.
God raises up leaders for a reason. If the Reformation created one great error, it’s the mistaken notion that the “priesthood of all believers” somehow means that we’re all equally fit to inhabit all the offices of the Church.
That’s not true now, nor has it been true anywhere in Scripture. God does major works by raising up uniquely gifted people. The Church needs visionary leaders for that reason.
Sadly, we do not have visionary leaders in the American Church. What we have are people who have risen to the top of the heap through a corporate style of leadership development and those “leaders” by and large fully support the status quo. The spiritual movers and shakers are gone. We have no prophets in our pulpits. This, in part, explains the massive stagnation of the Church here.
Your claim only creates more of the same. We ABSOLUTELY need real leaders who will challenge the status quo both inside the American Church and out. And the more nameless and faceless they are, the better. Our cult of personality here has undermined true leadership, resulting in leaders who only tickle our ears and who do nothing to raise up a generation to tackle the great challenges the Church faces in the West. I can’t think of a single Christian today with national media access who is speaking out on developing true Christian community or how to live a lifestyle that gets off the treadmill we’re all on. Too many of our “leaders” today blindly support the treadmill because they have no vision for anything else.
All this is an extreme loss to the Church.
Comment by DLE (August 8, 2007 @ 4:45 pm )
Amy,
You and I agree on a lot of things. I’ve followed your writings, so I know where you’re coming from.
I’m in full agreement we parents need to be judicious concerning the exposure we give our children to the things of the world. The question becomes one of controlled exposure versus a bunker mentality. I see the bunker mentality all around me and most of it is driven by fear, an emotion the Lord tells us not to let rule us.
You and I both homeschooled, so I know that you understand that some parts of that movement are driven by a bunker mentality brought about by fear. It explains, in part, some of the hysterical claims by portions of the homeschooling community.
But we can’t live a kneejerk life. Where’s the foundation in Christ?
Most of the Christian world fails to live out a truly Christian worldview. The Christian businessman at home may memorize chapters of Scripture, but he operates his business on Darwinian principles because that’s the accepted means of running a business throughout this country. He may layer Scripture over the top of that and put up “Footprints in the Sand” posters in his office, but the core of his operation is Darwinian.
We have to show our children this. They must be exposed to alternative worldviews and shown how Christ trumps each one. We underestimate the deceptions out there. Bunkering our children only makes them more prone to subtle arguments. Exposing children to the subtle arguments in an environment geared to demolishing those arguments is the only godly course of action. But we have to know what the arguments are and how to combat them or else we raise a generation that will only put a veneer of Christianity over some godless worldview.
Comment by DLE (August 8, 2007 @ 5:01 pm )
Just wanted to say that you did a good job with your comments Amy.A good subject that can lead to many disagreements.
Just to add about Britney Spears,reminds of a few years ago at our church we prayed for a man named Ted Turner-eventually we prayed for THE Ted Turner .After tonights news on Britney people should really pray for her and the 2 children.Enough said!!
Comment by Tammy (August 8, 2007 @ 6:15 pm )
Ginny,
I pointed you to Acts 17, where Paul addressed the Athenians at Mars Hill. That passage pretty clearly makes my point that we can engage non-Christians around us by started with their own culture as a bridge to conversation. But, if we’re going to do that, we have to know that culture.
I don’t think it’s enough to say we have to know about the culture. We have to know the culture itself. That’s means participating in it alongside our non-Christian neighbors.
Just like the people that Nehemiah led in reformation, it means that as a city with in a city we participate along side our neighbors for the good of the city. Yes, we hope that our involvement, interaction and engagement will create witnessing opportunities, but more than than it means that we simply seek the good of our city and culture and those around it. Just like we desire redemption for our neighbors, we desire redemption for the culture.
Comment by Jon (August 8, 2007 @ 7:14 pm )
I humbly submit that the point of Amy’s original post may be obscured in all this. Amy said,
The dichotomy is thus set up between church life and the rest of life and it is a false and unbiblical dichotomy. We have our orthodoxy, but it stops at the church door and how we live means nothing. If we are what we are only inside the four walls of a building we call church but we are something else when we are outside, then what are we really? And if we are no different from the culture around us, how do we expect to impact it.
DLE, we probably don’t disagree all that much. I was perhaps a bit ungracious and hasty in my comment, though I stand by the essence of what I said. I could have said it a little less starkly and been a little more constructively. I agree with you completely that it is good to have leaders do what you are saying, as it is not possible for most of us to assume a prominent role. I think such leaders do exist, a minor point we may disagree on. However, I am not optimistic that transformation of the culture will come through such leaders. And I know that we do not need them, if God’s word is true. I am not saying we reject them or that we ignore them or that we don’t ask God for them or that we aren’t thankful for them. But I am hanging my hat on the sufficiency and authority and perspicuity of God’s Revelation over and above any human leader that He may provide.
In the same book that Amy referenced in her original post, Marva Dawn quotes Vaclav Havel, the poet statesman of the Czech Republic. When asked why the Velvet Revolution there was so successful, he said, “We had our parallel society. And in that parallel society we wrote our plays and sang our songs and read our poems until we knew the truth so well that we could go out to the streets of Prague and say, ‘We don’t believe your lies anymore’ - and Communism HAD to fall.”
Dawn goes on to say, “The same should be true for the church … We are a society parallel to the world surrounding us. When we gather for worship, when we gather for education, when we worship at home, we tell the narratives of the faith, sing our hymns, say our prayers, until we know the truth so well that we and our children can go out to our neighbors and offer alternatives to the lies of the principalities and powers that dominate our culture.”
Comment by Greg (August 8, 2007 @ 9:53 pm )
Wow, quite the discussion…so interesting.
Jon, how can we participate in the culture without sinning? Paul new about the culture but I don’t see how he participated in it? Yes he mentions their poets and their gods in the chapter you pointed out, but does this mean he participated in the worship of their gods or immersed himself in reading the works of their poets? I imagine this is not what you are saying but perhaps this is the confusion from your comment? Could you clarify what you mean by participating in the culture we live in.
To me participating means knowing that people like Britney exist but to listen to her music seems fruitless to me. I know of her music hearing it in public settings like the mall or glimpsing her on TV but should I go further and purchase her records or watch her videos? It seems to me that a glimpse into her life is enough to know that what makes her tick is nothing godly so why know more? I think we know a lot about the culture we live in by being aware of it to varying degrees but must I know the nitty gritty details? I can understand my neighbor and what makes him tick because I know the desires of my old sinful nature while living out my new redeemed/justified nature. My appetite must change when I am renewed in Christ and I will not feed it by participating in my culture but I will know about my culture by being aware. There are ways to know about a culture without participating in it. I suppose what we may disagree on is the extent to which we experience the culture.
For example, when I was dating my husband there were those in our circle of friends who thought nothing of going to the local bar at the beach. To me this seemed like a place where godly people shouldn’t be at such and influential age. I knew in my heart that the only reason I desired to go to that bar was to be ‘checked out’ by the men and feel good in the party atmosphere. So I resisted this desire. Just recently (after being married 5 years and bearing 3 children) we did go to this joint since the options were few and since our maturity level had increased since our teen years. I hated being there. I saw our culture for what it was and could in NO way participate in the activity that went on at the bar. So seeing the culture in this setting was not an eye-opener for me-it was not news to me what went on at the bar even though I had never been there. It simply confirmed to me what I thought went on there. Do I understand the people who go there to a greater extent? I can’t say I do. I may feel more pain for their state but viewing their actions was enough for me-I didn’t need to join in their entertainment to understand it. Viewing it from the sidelines stirred up desires of the ‘old person’ in me and saddened the new person I am in Christ.
To summarize my point let me be clear that I need not behave like the world to understand it-I have the desires of sin in me that help me understand it and the new person I am must fight those desires not entertain them. It is my life that the world should be interested in because I must exemplify joy in Christ and this joy should so permeate my life that the world would want to participate alongside me! Being an example of godliness is far more important than participating in what the world exemplifies.
Phew, this is long winded! SO SORRY.
Comment by Mel (August 8, 2007 @ 10:47 pm )
Amy,
I haven’t commented much, but I love this post. (Not that I haven’t loved other posts you’ve written!
)
Idon’t think the issue is about sheltering or not sheltering, or how much to shelter. It is about the heart. Why arewe doing one thing IN church and another OUT of church? Isn’t the pursuit of holiness for every day? We come from the point of view that every thing we do, view, read, look at etc feeds us. If most of our food is ‘junk’, we will reflect that. I know for us there are times when we switch off the tv for as long as it takes to break its hold on us. We will not go to movies for a time. I love music, but I recognised that most of the time I was listening to music that is not necessarily ‘bad’ in itself, but it was not ‘good food’. I underwent a self-imposed music fast. We don’t do any of this religiously, but out of a desire to honour God and make sure that we do think on what is good, honourable and pleasing to God. The bible tells us that where our treasure is, there our heart is also, and we want our treasures to be spiritual ones.
Not to say that we don’t watch tv, listen to music etc etc, but we are constantly examining our hearts and asking the Lord how we are doing in terms of our focus. Our motive is always to please God, not to follow a set of rules which everyone argues over anyway.
Valerie
Comment by Valerie (August 8, 2007 @ 10:53 pm )
P.S.this is a different Valerie to all the other Valeries.
Comment by Valerie (August 8, 2007 @ 10:54 pm )
Yes Greg! Exactly. My wife and I had that exact conversation the other night. What are those girls seeking for in those lyrics that they’re not being taught by scripture, their parents, church? We want for ourselves and for our children to have a deep desire to know Jesus 7 days a week–and like Greg is saying, we need to live out our orthodoxy in our everyday interactions.
And Yes! It is very biblical to say that we are to live in a society parallel to the world around us, and that we are to know the truth so well that we can offer alternatives to the lies of the cultures (Matt 5:14-16). Offering alternatives to the lies of the culture is the step that I’m trying to emphasize–that bridge of speaking into the culture around us and being missional. There is not much evangelism going on when we live in a society that is so separate, so “parallel” that we are not fulfilling our mandate to “go into the world and make disciples of all men” (Matthew 28:19-20).
Wouldn’t it be amazing if our kids were so grounded in scripture and in the culture around them that they can intelligently and boldly speak to their friends about Jesus who is a bigger Lord than the principalities and powers in Harry Potter books? That they can watch the new Transformers movie and parallel Optimus Prime to Jesus as Optimus Prime was willing to sacrifice his life for the sake of the humans in that movie–and Jesus did that for us. Now that’s on the scale of our children. The question I want to know is how do you do that for your neighbors? coworkers? non-believing friends? The truth of scripture is all around us in our culture’s folklore and it’s just a matter of bringing it out so that we can talk to non-believers about what they seek when they engage in culture and who it is that they are REALLY seeking–God who sent his son Jesus into the world to live and die for us.
Looking over the comments and reading some of Amy’s past blogs, it appears that we are coming from a common background of scripture–we also seem to have the same theological convictions. I just wanted to encourage folks to contextualize the gospel in their practical application so that we can be a living witness and not so separate from non-believers that “we” can no longer relate to “them.”
Amy, I appreciate your blog and that you encourage and promote thoughtful and useful discussion like this. Thanks for hearing me out.
Comment by Jon (August 9, 2007 @ 12:52 am )
Amen amen amen
Will come back and read the other comments later but just wanted to thank you for writing that.
Comment by Susanna (August 9, 2007 @ 7:00 am )
Also
I have a slight feeling that maybe Amy’s original meaning is getting lost somewhere here. Although what goes on around us does influence our children (and us!) I strongly found myself saying ‘amen’ to the thoughts about what the church and believers are embracing in their lives. So much of the christian life does seem to be a copy cat of society which really should not happen….and we are quite able to interact with the world without copying them- as if we are saying that what we have is not good enough to rech others without adding the worlds ideas to it.
Comment by Susanna (August 9, 2007 @ 7:39 am )
Sorry I took so long to answer this one.
A better title for my sideblog might be “Top Picks from the Challies A la Carte.” Don’t worry about heading over to that guy’s blog. I’ve got all his really good picks lifted conveniently for you over here.
Some other links come from RSS feeds, and still others are sent from readers via the Contact Form.
Comment by Amy Scott (August 9, 2007 @ 11:19 am )
Very interesting.
We send our kids to public school. They are teenagers. They walk side-by-side with the world every day.
The interesting thing to me is this: in our church youth group, it is the homeschooled and private Christian schooled kids who want the most to look, act and sound like the world. They dress punk and listen to Christian rock and dye their hair flat black and pierce their bodies in multiple places. Not all of them, but plenty of them do these things. The world appeals to them. My kids, who are in the world every day, do not have these same appetites to emulate it. One young man who had been homeschooled and gone to Christian school finally tried out the public school. On his first day, he was approached and told, “I can tell you where to get the best drugs.” So, of course, his parents and everybody else was appalled at what a horrible place the public school is. My kids have never been approached like that. Never. When discussing this event as a family, they said, “Well, yeah, Of course they told him where to get good drugs. He dresses like a skater.” I do not know what a skater is, but I know that when we are shopping for clothes, most of them [the clothes] are rejected out of hand because, “No way, Mom, those are skater clothes.”
When the world becomes the forbidden fruit, it is desired. When they walk in the world every day, they see it for what it is, and they desire God.
I also have encouraged my children to go to secular, not Christian college. I know too many girls who married “Christian” young men from Christian colleges, only to find out that they were not faithful to God at all. Devastating stories. I tell my kids to go to a secular school and look for someone who is willing to stand up for his faith THERE. You won’t find too many people pretending to be Christians in a climate that is hostile to Christians. If you want to find a real Christian, look at how he holds his faith in adversity.
Comment by ruth (August 9, 2007 @ 11:41 am )
Apparently, I missed a comment that was directed towards me when I posted last night… In response to comment #49 from Mel…
I agree Paul didn’t worship their gods, but I did mean that Paul must have been reading their poets. He quotes them on the spot from memory. He must have internalized at least some of it. But, yes, there does appear to be some confusion around my usage of the word “participate.”
I do not think it is enough to be aware of todays music, movies, books, etc. We must “know” them. We should be listening to popular music (I’m not sure that actually includes Britney Spears anymore though)… popular music will always be changing and we should keep abreast. We should be reading Harry Potter books. It is easily the most popular fiction franchise in the U.S. today. We can’t be relevant unless we know what it is. We should go see Brokeback mountain. Yeah, we all agree that we object to the content of Brokeback Mountain, but how can offer any legitimate criticism to a non-believer if our only exposure to it is word of mouth?
We can be in a parallel society and still sin. That’s a heart issue. I would submit that the artifacts in culture are not sinful. What some people do with them is sinful. But they don’t have to be, they can be redeemed.
I’m not saying everyone go immerse yourself in all of it. First off, everyone, with their particular background, may have places in culture where it would be fruitful. If you’re an alcoholic or a predisposition to alcoholism runs in your family, don’t go to bars. But don’t also take the leap to “bars promote drinking, which leads to drunkenness, which is a sin, so bars are sinful.” (Some of my best theological discussions with my pastors have been over beers and pipes or cigars.)
Also, consider where you are called to witness. Mel, you talked about not wanting to go to a bar because of the sinfulness that you saw there (drinking, getting noticed by the opposite sex, etc) and then going back 10 years later to find out you were “right”. What if some one is called to minister to single 20 and 30-somethings? Seems like the place they’d HAVE to be is at the bars and at the clubs. They wouldn’t go there to get drunk and hit on people, but they would go there. And they’d get to know people. They’d form relationships with people, they’d make friends. You have to spend enough time with people that you know their hearts and their idols and then you can start to help them knock their idols down. It doesn’t work to show up in the parking lot some night and say, “I know what you’re doing and Jesus doesn’t approve.” You have to know the people first and you have to participate in there culture. You don’t go so far to sin, but you do participate. May we should extent the idea of the parallel society to just being “parallel” to non-believers; alongside them.
If you’re called to minister to kids. That means you watch the latest cartoons, and read the latest books, (even if they are blatantly non-Christian (read: Harry Potter).) You must know those meta-narratives so well that you can engage in conversation and use them as a bridge to Jesus.
If you’re called to minister to High School kids (whether you’re an adult or a High School student yourself) you should know their TV, their movies, and their music–not just know about it.
The bottom-line, is that I believe you can’t witness from afar. In order to witness effectively you need to have relationship; and I think that’s born out in Scripture, both in the examples of Jesus himself, and of the apostles. If you’re going be in relationship with non-Christians, you’re going to need to participate alongside them in whatever culture God has called you to. I must absolutely and ardently defend my position that culture is not sinful. Culture is a tool to reach people who are.
Comment by Jon (August 9, 2007 @ 1:01 pm )
“I just wanted to encourage folks to contextualize the gospel in their practical application so that we can be a living witness and not so separate from non-believers that “we” can no longer relate to “them.””
I wasn’t going to comment, because I knew (and hated) how preachy this is going to sound… but then I just had to. My husband (of 10 whole weeks!) and I have been struggling with the issue of how to relate to people without compromising the truth. He is a Youth Pastor, and in our work with teenagers and young adults, we see the fruits of the notion that our kids need to participate in the culture in order to evangelize. The funny thing is, the families that have taken to heart the biblical mandate to be separate are the ones that are reaping the rewards of evangelism.
It is our difference from the world, not our similarities, that have drawn people to us. When our neighbors, co-workers and non-beleiving friends and family notice the difference in our lives, many have come to us and said, “You guys have something we don’t. You don’t need all the trappings of the world - why is that? You’re different, and we want what you have.” If we were participating in the same things they were, what difference would they have seen? Our ability to parallel the villian in the R-rated movie with Satan, and the hero with Christ? That doesn’t change lives, it merely sanctions a life apart from Christ. My greatest failings in my efforts to evangelize have been those times when I have allowed myself to participate in the culture, thinking I would gain relevance. Instead, I only lost ground. Once people saw that I was willing to live much like they did, they were little interested in something more.
As Christians, the world is watching us and, most of the time, mocking what they see as the hypocrisy of our lifestyles. Even they know that their movies, music and attitudes do not reflect Biblical standards - why don’t we? “In and not of” is a difficult balance, unless we are committed to surrendering every single moment of our lives to be led by the Spirit. In my daily activities, I must ask not “will this help me relate to those around me”, but “will this glorify God and honor the Gospel?” It is the Holy Spirit that saves, not my ability to appear relevant and show my neighbors that they can have it both ways - one foot in the world and the other in the church. Isn’t the cry of Revelation “Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins”? If we are immersed in the sin-soaked culture, then what are we calling them out of?
Comment by RKD (August 9, 2007 @ 1:29 pm )
Psalm 101:2-4:
I will be careful to lead a blameless life—
when will you come to me?
I will walk in my house
with blameless heart.
I will set before my eyes
no vile thing.
The deeds of faithless men I hate;
they will not cling to me.
Men of perverse heart shall be far from me;
I will have nothing to do with evil.
Comment by Amy Scott (August 9, 2007 @ 1:58 pm )
***Sensing that he is out-numbered and not persuading anyone, Jon decided that he should spend less time commenting on blogs and more time listening to NPR and brushing up on his liberal politics. After all, he lives in Seattle, if he’s going to be able to engage culture and effect change around him, he needs to be up on his NPR.***
(Said with sarcasm, but still the truth.)
Comment by Jon (August 9, 2007 @ 4:09 pm )
From Cathy
Comment by Cathy (August 9, 2007 @ 4:12 pm )
Jon,
I hope your last comment isn’t indicative of you feeling like no one is listening and that everyone is ganging up on you (like Amy said she did yesterday). However, shouldn’t you be able to defend your stance? Spirited discussions are good. I agree with much of what you said, but I wouldn’t want to attend a church in which everyone is in lock step with each other. I think that’s a dangerous, slippery slope.
If you look at the review in Christianity Today (how do you underline or italicize, Amy?), hardly the paradigm of orthodoxy, of “Brokeback Mountain,” it makes mention of a graphic sex scene and the gay content. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how, as believers, we can take that in and not have it affect us adversely. Maybe I’m a weaker believer than you, but to fill my mind with graphic sex scenes, in my view, is detrimental–and I’m no prude. Would going online and looking at a graphic scene so I could speak to my neighbor about Christ because he’s into porn, be in keeping with the commands of Scripture? I guess I don’t get it. I don’t want to be mundane, tedious and over the top, but where does one draw the line? I totally agree with you with regard to painting everything with a wide brush and dismissing it as sin and that isolationism is something that should not be practiced. (BTW, Ginny, I don’t think the passages you cited are relevant to liking beer. What exactly do you think the wine that Jesus made from water was?) BUT, nor do I believe that all things in the culture are fair game in which believers should partake. Is anything off limits?
I have a tendency to immediately dismiss, out of hand, anything new or trendy. Thankfully, I have a balanced husband who helps me when I go sideways and patiently listens and provides wisdom. When my kids were younger, I tended to forget that there were/are enjoyable secular things in which they could engage. I desperately wanted my kids to walk with God, but my zeal was too much sometimes. (Since my kids are older now, I have mellowed and realize there are things that are innocuous and undeserving of my attention and angst.) I can’t tell you how many times in years past that my kids said, in response to a comment I would make, “Yeah, Mom, we know it will all burn up, but…” We are, as much as lies within us, to ground our kids in Scripture (not as a hammer) and arm them with Truth. (I agree with Amy that to some extent, as parents, ALL of us shield our kids from something.) My hope is that God will use what we taught (and are still teaching) them will continue to influence their walk and that they will persevere to the end.
This is an example of real life that speaks to my contention that not all things are profitable for my kids or for me. Admittedly, I am using the experience as a reference point. Last week, my son was invited to see a movie with a friend. He said he didn’t think it was a very good movie (translation: it wasn’t a movie that he was comfortable seeing). I didn’t know anything about the movie and looked it up online. I read the reviews and agreed that it wasn’t a movie that he should see. (The last thing that I need for my 14 year old son is to be inundated with titillating “scantily clad” women, per the review.) When I told him that I appreciated his perspective, he began to waffle because he didn’t know how to tell his friend. I prayed with him and talked about it with my husband and daughters (EVERYTHING becomes a forum in our house) about how to tell his friend. We didn’t want him to appear sanctimonious since the friend’s mom was allowing him to see it, but how to tell him in a loving way was a difficult gig. Thankfully, it worked out, but I was thankful that my son didn’t really want to see the movie. He is still growing in his walk, and is by no means a mature Christian, but that was such an encouragement.
When I get discouraged with what I see as a lack of spiritual progress in my kids, it is helpful for me to remember Deuteronomy 6:6-8, “You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.” It is a good signal to keep raising them in the Ephesians 6:4 way.
Perhaps we have gotten far afield from Amy’s original post, but the principles which have been addressed are relevant. Maybe her post will serve to remind us that are to build each other up the faith (Hebrews 10:24) and stir each other to good works. And, in the words of Martha Stewart, “That’s a good thing.”
Comment by Cathy (August 9, 2007 @ 5:26 pm )
Amen…
Comment by Ruth (August 9, 2007 @ 5:29 pm )
Hi all,
I’m Jon’s wife and actually sent him the link to this blog in the first place…I did so because it has been an ongoing conversation with us, as we listen to many sermons that are incredibly missional, as well as read books like Piper’s “Don’t Waste Your Life.” We regularly wrestle with how we want our kids to look, speak, act, but most importantly, we want to show them how to worship Jesus so that they are oriented toward God not man.
Like many who have posted I too agree that there is a limit to what we intake of the culture (ie I haven’t watched Brokeback Mountain and limit my movie intake in general…I do listen to non-Christian music as music is a hotbutton in Seattle culture). And I wouldn’t encourage everybody to participate in the culture in all situations–case in point, the example of alcoholics, or teenagers who are not grounded in their faith to stand firmly unapologetic in the midst of culture (like RKD was talking about in #58). But there is a measure of freedom in Christ if you are grounded in scripture to choose a battlefield and engage. I can still be oriented toward God, while choosing to participate in the culture around me.
A personal example is that I love to read. Another believer and I each invited several Christian AND non-Christian friends to be a part of a bookclub. We primarily read non-Christian works from all cultures/eras…Last month our book was focused on escapism and glorified escapism throughout the whole 600 pages. In our discussion, I brought up some passages from Piper’s “Don’t Waste Your Life” and talked to them about the emptiness of a life of escaping, in comparison to my belief in Jesus who walks with us through suffering and trial. The non-believers disagreed with me but I trust that whatever I said was what God called me to say, and that if I wasn’t in relationship with them and in community to speak into their lives, then those words wouldn’t be said. If I hadn’t read that non-Christian book, I wouldn’t have had that conversation. It was not sinful to read that book. While the book was full of sin (it was about humans, after all), the book itself is not a sin (as a part of culture—it is spiritually neutral and can be used to point to redemption in Jesus or emptiness in the world). That book was a tool that I used in conversation with non-Christians to point them to Christ.
This, and other situations is what we mean by being missional. Different people do it differently in your respective culture, with your own neighbors and friends. We are still living “parallel” (since most of food is from scripture, theological works, sermons, etc), but we choose to be missional too, so that we can engage people where they are at. A side note is that our closest friends are Christian, since we reach a depth of accountability and heart-level relationship with them as we point each other to Christ…can’t do that with a non-believer so the relationships are often more shallow…Anywho, thought I’d do a bit more clarifying since my husband is tired….
How you do this is something for each Christian to wrestle with in their own lives…
Comment by KKrombein (August 9, 2007 @ 8:25 pm )
Hi Jon’s Wife,
I am running out the door, but wanted to quickly say that I agree with your comment. We have to meet people where they live. My brother regularly ministers to homeless people in an area park. He visits people in jail who have been arrested in said park and shares the Gospel. He doesn’t condone their behavior, but he loves them and realizes as I do, that they’re in bondage to sin and need a Redeemer.
I think we should be informed. I read Blue Like Jazz, and while I don’t agree with much of Miller’s premise, it isn’t a bad read. I want to know what’s out there. All that I am saying, and I hope it came across, it that some movies/books, etc., may be objectionable based on our reading of Scripture.
I’m not taking Jon to task (I loathe legalism, so I’m more on his side than not), but I do think it’s wise to get a different perspective.
Piper is awesome, as is Sproul and others that your husband mentioned. I hope what I said in my last comment didn’t add to his tiredness.
BTW, my husband lived in Seattle for many years after having left Pittsburgh, PA. It was there that he became a believer as a college student through the influence of his landlord.
Tell Jon to get some sleep.
Cathy
Comment by Cathy (August 9, 2007 @ 8:43 pm )
Ruth (Comment #56),
I too could make a sweeping indictment against private and home education based on my personal observations of successful public school students and misguided home and private school students. Likewise, I could convict poor public school students using exemplary home and private school students. Successful and unsuccesful students are in both arenas.
It would be a fallacy, however, to use my limited observations to ardently declare any one position the correct one.
Additionally, adversity for Christian students is not limited to public schools. Any Christian will face battles because our greatest enemy is not of this world; he brings the fight to us. Where we are located spiritually is far more crucial than our physical location.
Successful Christian students, wherever they are found, are those who equip themselves with spriritual weapons, draw near to Christ, and develop a strong core of equally minded supporters who encourage each other to stay hot, not lukewarm, in their passion for God.
Comment by CR (August 9, 2007 @ 9:38 pm )
Ruth,
Regarding comment 56
I too could make a sweeping indictment against home and private school students based on personal observations of thriving public school students and misguided home and private school students. Likewise, I could convict troubled public school students based on my firsthand knowledge of exemplary home and private school students. There are successful and unsuccessful students in both arenas.
It would be a fallacy, however, to use my limited observations as proof to declare any one method superior to another.
Additionally, adversity is not unique to the public school student because our enemy brings the battle to us. Our spiritual location is a far more crucial factor than our physical location when that confrontation comes.
A successful Christian student, wherever they may be found, is one who is equipped for spiritual battle, draws close to Christ, and develops an inner core of like-minded supporters who encourage each other to maintain a hot, not lukewarm, passion for God.
Comment by CR (August 10, 2007 @ 12:00 am )
oops sorry about the ditto!
Comment by CR (August 10, 2007 @ 12:30 am )
OH WOW! I’ve missed a lot and am having FUN catching up! LOL! Mel asked about participating with the worls without sin… We live in a bad neighborhood (that’s getting better!) and have always “participated”. When the lady across the street who cussed all the time needed kerosene, we were there to fill it. We had a neighbor who drank so much that her skin was leather, and she had no manual dexterity left. When she fell lay in the street, we were there to pick her up and see her home. When the schizophrenic neighbor who was also addicted to drugs and walked around in her brazierre walked by, we were there to greet her and also give her the prize she won for attending our Mary Kay open house. When one of the homeless knock on our door, it it’s all we got we try to at least share a sandwich. We walk to our library and lead story time (nature journals right now~this walk is how we’ve gotten to know so many people!) and share that we love to study nature because it reveals the glory of God. (Psalm 19:1) And when any of these are hurting, we sing them hymns.
Listen, we are not great~I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m tooting my own horn. There is SO MUCH MORE that needs to be done~probably so much more that we could do! I’m just sharing that this is the world we live in with our four children, and we train them through it all by showing them what life looks like and what the Bible has to say about it all. (((((HUGS))))) sandi
Comment by (((((HUGS))))) sandi (August 10, 2007 @ 9:07 am )
You know, there will always be big differences in opinion while in this world-role on glory! Especially when it comes to raising our children. I think that what worries me most is not just the way that the world’s culture is in our lives, but the way it is in our churches. That concerns me far more.
I think some people may think my up bringing was slightly legalistic- and in my own time I rebelled against some of the rules. But as I look back now I see the wisdom behind many of the decisions made. Once a taste, a thought, a scene is in your mind it is very hard to get rid of. Whats more, there is less difficulty in letting go of things you never truly indulged in in the first place.
Comment by Susanna (August 10, 2007 @ 11:26 am )
When personal preference becomes moral superlative, this is where legalism holds sway.
Schisms, strife and divisions have occurred over the minutest of details: whether or not laying carpet in the meeting house was “worldly” caused a split among the PB churches long ago.
I see NO edification in pointing fingers. ALL believers are the body of Christ. We are members of the same body. Each performs a different function.
One may have a more “missional” outlook. God bless you.
One may seek a life of solitude & quiet prayer. God bless you.
It is not for me (or any of us!) to judge the Christian who drinks a beer, or watches a particular movie, or listens to a certain kind of music, or sends their child to public school.
Jon (comment 60) may be led to listen, engage or experience the culture differently than Ginny.
Can we not allow for differences?
Comment by Elizabeth (August 10, 2007 @ 1:44 pm )
Just want to clarify a few things.
Are you saying that if we don’t keep in touch with society to the extent that we immerse ourselves in the particulars of culture then we are not missional? As I understand it, being mission oriented is walking as Christ walked-and that is exactly opposite of the world while still being aware of what goes on in the world. I think you miss the point when you suggest specific things that we should be doing or seeing. The principle is to be attractive to the world by being like Christ. I can witness to my gay neighbor without watching Brokeback Mountain as long as I understand what God’s Word says on the issue of homosexuality. His Word will guide me far better than involving myself in worldly things. That is not to say that I can’t read books, listen to music, watch movies etc, BUT I still have to be discerning and will not fill my mind with filth for the purpose of witnessing. I TRULY do not mean to sound ‘holier than thou’. Please don’t misunderstand me. I guess the point I have been trying to make is that it is far more important to stand out IN the world than to do the things the world does to reach them.


Sandi, I get that we can participate in the world without sinning by reaching people with their needs. What I don’t agree with is Jon saying that we ’should watch Brokeback Mountain’. That is the kind of participation that I don’t understand. I don’t see how it would help me reach my neighbor.
Jon I know you are tired but can I ask another question?
RKD, you made your point beautifully! Preach on!
Amy, you quoted my favorite Psalm.
Boy, I hope I am not making myself sound like a legalist!
I’m getting carried away with the smileys.
Thanks for an honest/open discussion guys!
Comment by Mel (August 10, 2007 @ 1:51 pm )
I do hope you all realize that when you take your redeemed selves to disgusting movies, drink liquor (or should I say smoke marijuana since that’s not mentioned in the Word by name either), and read filthy books, that unfortunately you take along the Holy Spirit of God who dwells in us until the day of Redemption, which for His sake, I hope is soon.
Amy, we all know you’re about as sweet as honey, but you do certainly attract the strangest flies.
I KNOW I’m a sinner, there’s no pride in that, but I try to fight it every step of the way. I don’t think I have EVER heard so much justification of sin.
Comment by Ginny (August 10, 2007 @ 3:50 pm )
YIKES! Ginny,
I don’t want to be rude, but your tone seems so strident. I love Jesus (although my life may not always reflect that) and I plan to be in Heaven with you. We are fellow heirs and sisters in Christ.
Love trumps knowledge, per I Corinthians 13. The WAY we state what we believe is nearly as important as what we believe.
Years ago, a friend was sharing the Gospel and he and the other person were standing by a Shell gas station (a well-known gas station in CA). He looked up and said, “Take off the “S” from that gas station sign and that is where you’ll go if you don’t know Jesus.” He was chagrined years later when he looked back on it. While the message was the truth, the WAY he said it was at issue.
“A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in a setting of silver.” Proverbs 25:10
In His Mercy Forever,
Cathy
Comment by Cathy (August 10, 2007 @ 4:24 pm )
Dear Cathy,
I’m sorry you thought I was implying that you were not a Christian. On the contrary, I assumed you were. You sense my frustration…I stand corrected. The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts. I should have left it at that.
Comment by Ginny (August 10, 2007 @ 6:40 pm )
I also just wanted to add that apparently I am totally naive. I know Christians who do the above mentioned things…but they try to cover it. I must admit, I was quite shocked to hear people justifying it or even going as far to say it’s a ministry. No, I’m not talking about drinking…alot of people reason that one. But the gay movies and sensual books? That is a new one for me. And yes, I don’t mind saying I’m a little angry, and no, I don’t think it’s ok. Call me a legalist, whatever, but everyone seems only concerned about tolerating and not judging these matters. I am not. I think it’s terrible. Period. And saying that they’re doing it for the Lord does not soften the blow for me. Quite the opposite.
Comment by Ginny (August 10, 2007 @ 6:53 pm )
2 things.
1) Mel, you know where God has called you to minister. I do not think that we should be immersed in all of culture. But within the realm of your calling, you should be immersed in that subculture. It sounds like you’re objecting to my use of the word “should” in regards to “should” watch Brokeback Mountain. See below for more on that. You also asked
I would say I have hang up with your use of “immerse”. Again, immerse is particular to your situation, in your culture. I personally do not immerse myself in all areas of culture. You also said:
Christ did not walk “opposite” of the world. He walked amongst sinners and alongside them. He spent so much time with unsavory people that he was on more than one occasion slandered and reprimanded by “believers.” He still was fed by scripture and aligned with God the father, and his closest friends were believers.
There seems to be an underlying assumption among many who have commented here that what God would want for his kingdom is opposite and incongruent with today’s culture. I again, will suggest that what he wants is a redemption and restoration of culture. Christ said “I am making all things new.” (Rev 21:5) not “This all is sin, let’s ditch it for something different.”
2)Amy, you quoted Ps. 101:3 above. You quote, “I will set no vile thing before my eyes.” Now, I must admit that my greek is rusty and my hebrew is non-existent, so I must base this solely on my english translations, but both my NASB and my ESV (the most literal translations I have) say “worthless” not “vile.” There is a big difference. I’m sure we could all present a case for why Brokeback Mountain is worthless based on our theological disagreement of the subject matter, but at the same time, if it can be a bridge to talking to someone about Jesus or how God intended relationships to be, then it is not “worthless.” Consider that the premise of the movie is how two married men, forsake their marriages, and have an affair that subsequently destroys their lives and their family’s lives. You’re telling me you can’t get a teachable moment out of that? And when someone strikes up a conversation in the g