Working women
Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007
I wrote my last post on a whim—very quickly and off-the-cuff. I didn’t ponder the content because I thought it rather benign. Really, who could argue that parents should “be there” for their children? We know that there are people who argue that quality matters, not quantity, but the people who read here have a ton of common sense. They already know better than that.
Still, some discussion arose, and I hope others will feel free to chime in.
Do you think our children notice and appreciate the fact that we are “always there” if they are at home with us all day? The example you referred to fits nicely with a son or daughter who is coming home from school, but what about the ones who don’t leave their homes much?
Young children aren’t always the most thankful creatures. Thankfulness is oftentimes something people cultivate in hindsight. But parents still should give children what they need, even if they aren’t capable of realizing they need it–just like we give them green veggies, multiplication facts, and regular bedtimes.
For many years, I walked around waiting for someone to notice my sacrifice and hoped for some grand acknowledgment on Mother’s Day. (I admit it.) One day I realized that my obedience is better than feeling appreciated. And this is the secret of the Christian’s life–everything is an offering for Christ. What we do for little ones, we do for Christ.
…how does one go about “being there” in a sense, when she might not actually be allowed to continue to “be there” as her children grow, mature, become young men and women of God?
This point was raised by a mom fighting cancer.
This is the shortcoming of writing whimsically–saying something without saying everything. But I’m afraid I missed the main thing. While it is important to be there for our children, it is not the most important thing. Teaching them to love and obey God is. We are not promised tomorrow, but God is the only One able to say, “I will never leave you or forsake you.” When we teach our children well, we give them all that they need for the moment that will come when they have to walk without us.
Michaele, I pray that your remission from cancer is not a “might be” but a sure thing.
What if you can’t be “there” because you have to work to keep the ship afloat? Does that make you less of a Christian, less of a woman, less of a mother, less of a PW [Amy: PW stands for “pastor’s wife”]?
I think your “does that make me less” sentiment comes from a general carelessness with our words. I recently heard someone say that it was sin for women to work outside the home, not qualifying the circumstances or age of the woman. This surprised me a bit, as I immediately thought of how much my Christian girlfriends love those female labor and delivery nurses, obstetricians, and midwives.
I’ve also noticed that, some would say, it’s OK to volunteer outside the home (especially doing ministry), but it’s not OK to “pick up a shift” for money outside of the home. This position is inconsistent and intellectually dishonest. The distinction isn’t in Scripture; we are commanded to keep our homes. To hold a consistent position, you’d have to say that both are sin.
When Jesus healed the blind man on the Sabbath, this was an outrage. In this way, however, we see that God is more interested in our keeping the spirit of His Words and not the letter only. This is how it is possible for a woman to stay at home 24/7 and still sin (in her smugness) while it is possible for a woman to work outside the home, doing so unto the Lord and thereby glorifying God.
Scripture teaches us that women with small children (especially speaking, since the command is given to “younger women”) ought to “keep” their homes. (Titus 2:3-5) The responsibility for their upbringing belongs to families, not institutions. This is one reason we bought 54 acres and hope our children build their homes nearby. Raising children is hard on a woman during her childbearing years, and I don’t want my daughters to do it alone. I’m doing it, and it’s not ideal. We need one another.
I almost said that the Bible is “pro-home” and we ought to be too. But really, the Bible is “pro-Jesus” and we shouldn’t lose sight that God’s glory is the point, not keeping a nice little home for its own sake. We ought to spur one another think outside the box, develop communities of support, and bear with one another as we seek to apply a Biblical worldview to the situations we find ourselves in.
I’m not comfortable saying that women working outside the home is always sin, though, it ought not to be so normal. (One day I will tell the story of how we made it on $318 a week for years without going into debt or accepting government aid.) I am comfortable with agreeing with Scripture that women ought to use their energy in keeping their homes.
I didn’t get a chance to weigh in on the subject of having time for “so many children.” I hope to do that next time. ….In the meantime, T-minus 3 1/2 weeks! Yeah, baby!
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As one who is a grandmother and in the last year of homeschooling, I KNOW children notice when you are there. Not unlike when in Spring I walk to my mailbox on the county road and there is a fragrance that causes me to look all around for the source.
I’ve lived in this house for two Springs and I still can’t figure out where that is coming from but it is there. Mom is “there” and the kids take her for granted until they are older. There is a reason Proverbs seems to indicate it is older children that “rise up and call her blessed”.
I do realize there are times women must work outside the home. I did for many years when my daughter was young. If God permits it then He also causes Grace to surround that circumstance. It is when we do it outside of His will that there is constant confusion and conflict.
Comment by Brenda@Coffee Tea Books and Me (October 16, 2007 @ 5:52 pm )
Amy,
Thank you for responding to the criticism of women working outside the home. Currently my husband is a seminary student. We decided not to put off having children until the “ideal time” and we have a precious, sweet natured 8 month old right now. The caveat is that I have to work full time. We prayed and prayed about me staying home and God instead provided me a better paying job that covered the expenses we would require with a baby (and great health insurance that allowed us to afford the medical bills).
It’s been difficult for me b/c I feel like most of what I find are either a)feminist geared (YAY empowered working women type thing) or b) Christian women shouldn’t be out of the house (and a lot of “if only you knew how to REALLY budget” - which makes me only feel worse!)
We consider what we’re doing obedience right now. It isn’t ideal and it isn’t perfect (and it is just a season), but God has afforded us much grace and many blessings - we don’t have to do day care, for example.
All that said, I will forever have compassion on the working mother because I know how hard it is. Thanks for the encouragement.
Comment by Shannon (October 16, 2007 @ 6:29 pm )
Amy, you rock.
I love your intellectual honesty and mostly, your down-to-earth practicality. Thank you.
My mom worked. But she also raised me to love Jesus Christ. Sure, there were some things she missed—but she got the most important thing right: I love God and His Word.
Comment by Elizabeth (October 16, 2007 @ 8:24 pm )
Another great post, and comments too!
Comment by Annie (October 16, 2007 @ 8:42 pm )
Can’t wait to read the post on how you managed on that salary. I love to read how people make it, we’re really having to cut back and even if I’m not willing to give up some things, it’s always good to get ideas!
Comment by Gem (October 16, 2007 @ 8:44 pm )
Great post. I it’s also important for people who use this verse to make a point about women staying home to remember to keep it in it’s proper context. Paul was writing to encourage these women in Crete, who back in their times were living in one and two room places and basically not allowed to leave their homes many times. Many were turning to alcohol, more than likely to ease the hardness of their situations. Apparently malicious behavior was a problem as well. And so, Paul exhorted them to love their husbands and children, keep from slanderous talk, and to be sensible, pure workers at home so that the word of God would not be dishonored.
Comment by Heather (October 16, 2007 @ 9:01 pm )
I have been learning, more and more, to hold my positions with humility and grace toward those who disagree. Along those lines, I really appreciate your comments about mothers working outside their home. We are very blessed that I don’t have to right now. We struggle to get by, but God always provides enough. I am learning to be content. I would love to hear how you made it on so little. We are living on less that 19,000/year right now, and it is a constant struggle. I have repeatedly considered applying for WIC, but just don’t feel right about it. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that, too, as I sometimes wonder if it is just my pride speaking rather than any real conviction. As always, I look forward to your next post (or several)!
Comment by E.W.E (October 16, 2007 @ 9:05 pm )
Just wanted to put another plug in for you to make that “some day” when you write about living with $319 a week … some day soon!
You know, since you have nothing else to do…
Hee, hee.
Comment by Rachel (October 16, 2007 @ 9:31 pm )
I am anticipating the post on how you made it on $318 a week!
Comment by Bessie (October 16, 2007 @ 9:43 pm )
Excellent post, Amy.
Comment by Jeana (October 16, 2007 @ 10:46 pm )
I have always tried to supplement our income since, as I’ve already stated, ad nauseum, my husband is a California high school teacher. With ten kids and that occupation…well, you can do the math. (Don’t get me wrong, though. I’m extremely proud of my husband. Did I also mention in another post that he’s incredibly sexy?) Anyway, early on in our marriage, when he was in school and we had five (or six) kids, I threw newspapers and anything else I could do to help out. I’ve never really worked outside the home (except for odd jobs) and, for the last few years, have worked from home. That has enabled us to put our youngest two in Christian school and to buy lots of material possessions. I’m totally kidding on the material possessions part! We are content with what God has given us, but it’s hard to make it on my husband’s income with three kids in college. What I want to add to the discussion is some valuable advice that a sister in Christ gave me one time. It is this: Sometimes, as believers, we have this idea of how a Proverbs 31 woman looks. Nevertheless, realism may take a detour from our own expectations and images. God wants us to be an encouragement to our husbands, and that may include helping out with the income. I’m all for staying home with the kids (I have been fortunate to stay at home with the exception of the odd jobs here and there), but it may be an unhealthy precedent for women to lock themselves into an inflexible facsimile of the Christian woman. God calls us to different situations and solutions. If we could only learn to relax in His grace, love and timing, that would be life-changing. I’m preaching to the choir.
Amy, thanks for your email last week. I’m NOT pregnant, but I still have a good excuse, er, explanation for not responding. In the interim, I’m praying for the birth and delivery (and adjustment period) of the baby.
Comment by Cathy (October 16, 2007 @ 10:47 pm )
I love this post, Amy… and not because my children turned their noses up at my beautiful healthy dinner tonight but I made them eat it anyway. I love your reminder that it is about turning our children’s hearts toward the Lord Jesus while we are with them. They will one day walk alone and I pray that I do my job well for as long as the Lord has this job for me to do.
Also, I continue to pray for you as your baby’s arrival draws near! Exciting times!!
Comment by Lady Why (October 17, 2007 @ 12:24 am )
I love how you said the bible is Pro-Jesus and we shouldn’t loose sight of that.
i got both of your posts BTW… and i’m looking forward to the $318 a week story!
oh and to the WIC pondering lady… i’m wondering what is wrong with it? My family and I have received WIC for both our daughters, and when I was pregnant with them. I found out about it when my DH was in the army. we qualified for it and still do. It helps our grocery budget that’s for sure! your taxes goes to help fund it so why not take advantage of the program? But that’s of course MHO
Comment by allena (October 17, 2007 @ 12:25 am )
I was just talking about “just being there” as a parent in regards to my own childhood today with a friend. I popped in an it is being discussed. This may not be totally relevant, but it was my thoughts,, so I thought I would share. My mom was very busy with six children 5 under 8. My mom stayed at home and my dad worked. My mom was always home. When I woke, came home from school at lunchtime, after school, dinner and when I went to bed. It was the 70’s my parents were older; my mom had her first child at 28 her second at 38 and her last at 47. My dad was 50 when my youngest brother was born. All of my friend’s moms were young yet, I never really noticed that then. A lot of the moms worked outside the home and they all drove. My mom did not drive. Also, many of the distraction of today; phone(yes, we had one LOL) TV, computer etc were not that popular and we only had like 2 channels on the TV; pre-cable era. She was busy always doing something laundry, cooking. She always greeted us and was kind, but I do not remember spending great amounts of time just being with her on a personal level. She was just always home and that in its self was a great comfort to me and my siblings. It must have been to my friends as well for they always wanted to be at my house. They tell me now it was because it felt homey with my mom just being there at our house. A constant presence in our life, mainly in the background doing her thing as our mom, but a comforting presence all the same. We never had a curfew as kids, we did not need one. As Dorothy said, “There was no place like home.” I was young and did not really pay too much attention to things of this nature. I just took for granted mommy was always home. Even today both my parents are with the Lord, but her just being there is still a fond memory and a great comfort to my heart. I felt like I had her all the time. I guess the definition of just being there is different from person to person. A dear friend of mine went home to be with the Lord ten years ago. She left behind 5 children 4-14. She was a homeschool mom and the time she had with them was invaluable to her in those last days of her life. Yet, she knew she would not be there with them for long and that was very hard on her mothers heart. She trusted the Lord for their lives, that all any of us can do for ourselves and our children. They are growing so quickly the oldest just married this past summer. I talked with her about her mom she told me it was her just being there that she missed most and still did. She always will, I still do and always will miss my mom just being here. Well ladies I maybe a little off the heart of the subject, but thanks for letting me share.
Blessings,
Maryanne
Comment by Maryanne (October 17, 2007 @ 12:51 am )
Excellent post(s) Amy!
I struggle with this often - sometimes it is very frustrating being a SAHM, and very tempting to go out and work to help out hubby… but I always remember what my husband has said time and again - his mom worked his whole life, he was in daycare from a very young age, and he always wished it wasn’t that way. My mom was a SAHM forever (yay Mom!), even though we didn’t have a lot of money, and I am forever grateful for that. Myself and both of my sisters have been SAHMs, due to her example.
We are homeschooling this year as well, and I know that regardless of what else they learn, they will learn the love of Christ, the love of family, and what happiness really is. That is of course amid all the chaos and arguing and such that occurs on a day to day basis - just showing the love!
Happily just stirring the gravy, and thankful that God has allowed this for a season…
Comment by Laura (October 17, 2007 @ 3:32 am )
After my first and second were born I worked the “ideal” part time schedule. I dropped my four year old off to play with a friend and then dropped my seven year old son at Christian school. I only worked three days a week during the hours he was in school. I was never gone when he was home. However, one day when I dropped him off he said, “I hate that you go to work.” “Why, I asked? You’re in school anyway.” His reply…”I just like to know you’re home.” Baby #3 is now six years old and I went back to work two years ago for a mere 5 hours a WEEK for two Christian doctors who allow the job to also be a ministry to their patients. Last night my 10 year old said, “I hope you don’t have to go to work tomorrow.” “Why, I asked? You’ll be in school and I’ll only be gone a couple hours.” Her answer…”I just like knowing you’re home.” Knowing I’m at “work” is a totally different feeling for them than if I step out for a couple hours to get groceries or spend the afternoon with my sister. Go figure. Next year they’ll all be homeschooled and I’LL BE HOME
Comment by AmyT (October 17, 2007 @ 6:49 am )
Amy…..
Keep ‘em coming like this one…
In T minus 3 weeks, you’ll have your hands full! (oh, ha ha ha!)
Comment by Andrea (October 17, 2007 @ 7:52 am )
Thanks, Amy. I know all of us appreciate you taking time to elaborate.
I appreciate you addressing my question (the first in your post). In hindsight I realize I don’t think I meant that I want to be thanked all the time from the kids, but reading again and your response made me realize that whatever my motives were in asking that, they should be made more pure in understanding that everything we do is “as unto the Lord.” Thanks for the reminder!
I love what you said about pro-home / pro-Jesus. Yes!!!
Comment by Kristi (October 17, 2007 @ 8:23 am )
Amy,
“One day I realized that my obedience is better than feeling appreciated. And this is the secret of the Christian’s life–everything is an offering for Christ. What we do for little ones, we do for Christ.”
WOW, these few sentences have really helped me! I have 5 children, 12, 6,5,almost 4 and 2 1/2 (the bottom 4 came within 4 1/2 years-whew!). I have fallen into the Satan’s stinkin’ thinkin’ that I must be appreciated for all I do for them and whine about what they don’t do for me, obviously forgetting that it is for the glory of the Lord which it should all be done, not so that my silly little ego can be stroked (although a genuine Thank You Mommy is so sweet!).
I do appreciate your gift of words Amy - sometimes you say just the right thing at just the right time!
I will be praying for a lovely birth for you and your hubby. Three of my five were born at home - they were the best births - so relaxing, not in the sense that it didn’t hurt (I can get pretty vocal!) but it is so different from being under all the harsh lights and unnatural positions they require of you in a hospital!
(Remember to breathe and let your body do its work, letting all other muscles go limp (including facial muscles) - I’ve had births within 2 & 3 hours of the initial contraction when I conciously do this-hope it helps!)
Amy in Conroe, Texas
Comment by Amy(TX) (October 17, 2007 @ 8:51 am )
I’ve also noticed that, some would say, it’s OK to volunteer outside the home (especially doing ministry), but it’s not OK to “pick up a shift” for money outside of the home-I volunteer out of the home.The BIG difference betwwen that and working is I CAN stay at home if I need to-what are they going to do fire me.They don’t pay me!!
Now I have never been one to volunteer and leave my kids in daycare or a babysitter,which I have seen people do.Since my children are in public schools sometimes I have to get out of the house or be depressed.Or I could sit at home and watch the soaps!-NOT.
Comment by Tammy (October 17, 2007 @ 10:22 am )
This can be such a tough subject. I’ve been home full time now for about 6 years and I love it. Well, 85% of the time I love it. If I’m honest
I’ve also had to play the role of a working mother too. My husband lost his job in our second year of marriage and we had a 1 year old. We could not pay the bills and we were doing everything to try. He was mowing lawns, washing cars, doing ANYTHING to make a buck to keep me from going back to work. But, in the end, we refused government assistance and we really didn’t want to lose the house or keep burying ourselves deeper in debt, so I went back to teaching school for a year. It was the HARDEST year of my life.
Why?
Because very good intentioned, well meaning Christian friends beat me over the head with it. I was obviously not budgeting well enough (like someone said above) or I wasn’t trusting God enough—or both.
I felt like a failure as a wife and mother because I had to go back to work. My husband felt like a failure because he lost his job and couldn’t find work. I felt like a failure to the church and all my Christian SAHM friends because somehow my going back to work let THEM down (still trying to figure that one out!?!?)
So, here I am back at home again. But I have the experience now not to be so judgemental. Let’s be real. There are tons of moms out there who are at work because they hate being home. But there are just as more, if not many more, that would LOVE to be home full time but for whatever reason (budgeting or not) cannot be at this time in their life.
In the end, I suggest we all worry more about OUR OWN HOMES and our own situations rather than muse about so-and-so down the street or at church. It really serves no purpose.
I for one, am very happy stirring the gravy and being there.
Comment by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney (October 17, 2007 @ 10:46 am )
And I forgot to add, there is a huge, huge, huge (did I say huge???) difference between the mom that HAS to work because she’s divorced and her ex is a deadbeat, or the mom who literally has to provide health insurance for a sick child, etc than the mother who works so that they can live in the 3,000 McMansion and drive the SUV, and go on glamorous vacations twice a year.
BIG difference.
Somehow we, as the church, lump ‘em all into one category of working moms. And then, we often call them “feminists!” because we know that stings them to the core.
Why? I don’t know. Somehow I think it makes some of us feel better to point the finger and cry feminist.
Comment by Lindsey @ enjoythejourney (October 17, 2007 @ 10:49 am )
Great post, Amy. I love the compassion and understanding you show to women who do feel that they have to work, while still holding up the standards of scripture as the ideal.
Comment by terry (October 17, 2007 @ 11:00 am )
I agree very much with your post. I think the most important thing in this area is obedience to Christ. How many times do we make decisions and then ask God to bless them, instead of listening to the Word of God, purposing to obey and then standing back and watching God do something amazing. I agree that there are circumstances that drive a women into the workforce (divorce or death of husband, disability/illness of husband, submission to husband, etc.), but of all my working friends, I have but one that work for those reasons.
I will be the first to admit living on one income is tough. When we were baby Christians and started having children, we purposed that I would stay home. $200 a week with three children doesn’t go too far, but God provided for us during those years (without goverment aid–not pointing fingers at those who do, we just didn’t). And we still tithed! LOL When God lead us to bible college with those three children, and giving us 2 more while in college, my husband worked full time, pulled a full load in college, received excellent grades and I stayed at home the entire time. We graduated debt-free four years later. Was it easy? Absolutely not. It was hard, but God isn’t always concerned with our comfort. I’d say He’s far more concerned with His purpose for our lives and what He’s trying to accomplish; and many times it’s through trials and hardships. But so often, we are not willing to go through them. It’s much easier to find our own solutions and get out of the trial, but then we miss out on life lessons and so much more.
I’m not casting stones, but just trying to share that it is possible.
Comment by Ginny (October 17, 2007 @ 11:50 am )
Great post, and congrats on the upcoming post. As an interesting note to your comment on $318 a week…my husband and I are currently living on about $160 a week, we own our own home (still paying mortgage, but very low), we are not going into debt or relying on gov’t assistance by God’s grace, and miraculously we are accumulating savings at the same time! (The reason it is so low right now is that I am not working outside the home, he is only working part-time and going to Seminary full-time (someone paid his way this semester.)
Of course, our first child isn’t due until January, but living off of one small income is SOOOO possible! And we are having tons of fun learning how to save money, too! When God calls you to do something (for us, me to stop working, to leave child-giving in God’s hands, and for my husband to stay in school) He WILL give the grace to do it!
Comment by Keren (October 17, 2007 @ 11:55 am )
Please pray for those of us who have husbands who are nonbelievers and feel the wife should contribute to the income by working away from home. I feel my place is at home with my children (ages 13 and 6), but my husband does not. Any advice?
Comment by Kris (October 17, 2007 @ 12:14 pm )
As the mother of teenagers, I KNOW that my kids NEED me to be there more than ever!
Comment by Kathy, Jeff's Wife (October 17, 2007 @ 1:40 pm )
“When Jesus healed the blind man on the Sabbath, this was an outrage. In this way, however, we see that God is more interested in our keeping the spirit of His Words and not the letter only. This is how it is possible for a woman to stay at home 24/7 and still sin (in her smugness) while it is possible for a woman to work outside the home, doing so unto the Lord and thereby glorifying God.”
(I wish I knew how to put that in a box like other people do.)
Thank you for saying that. Sometimes the smugness can be so off-putting. I do stay at home, but I don’t homeschool. One of my friend’s kids said to her, “Mrs. C. doesn’t homeschool and she doesn’t work… what does she do, anyway??”
I teach Sunday school and Bibles studies, cook, clean, grocery shop, do LAUNDRY, plan home improvement projects and hire people to do them. I also take things to my kids at school when they forget them and manage the family calander (doctor appointments, dentist, vet, orthodontist, piano lessons, oboe lessons, clarinet lessons, saxophone lessons, trumpet lessons, karate, driver’s education classes, PSAT and SAT tests and preparation, etc.) I drive a lot, a lot more than I’d like to. I don’t know–I feel pretty busy and overwhelmed. But I also feel judged quite often. I wish that at least I had a knack for managing money or something. The only money management I do is in the conservation department (I’m pretty good at being thrifty). I don’t know anybody else who stays home and sends her kids to public school. At the very least, my friends manage the books for their husbands’ small businesses. Of course, an awful lot of them have cleaning ladies.
We need to remember that it is Jesus we need to please and not necessarily our holy friends (or their curious children!). Thank you for saying this so eloquently and graciously.
Comment by ruth (October 17, 2007 @ 1:49 pm )
It is interesting, I agree with you that volunteering constantly is no different than working outside the home, if it takes you away from home all the time.
But I do not see where you can find it in the bible that to be a Keeper at Home, means to be in your home 24/7. We see throughout scripture women who ministered to others in the NT even. When the women who followed and cared for Jesus, one of them was married at least, maybe more. The bible does not give us details, such as if there were children that traveled as well. I don’t think they were left at home.
It is not really I disagree with your thoughts, but I do disagree with people who focus so much on their houses, homes and family, they forget about ministry to others, because they have to stay home.
I know that ministry to others should never cause you to neglect your family, but it should not be ignored also.
The reason I say this, is because I was a mom who had 3 sons, pregnant with my 4th, my husband was in the hospital for 6 months. My oldest child was 6. We had to find a place to move, we needed help moving, but more than that we just needed friends. I was ignored as the church I was going to was very family focused and could not look beyond their own family to see someone suffering in their own church. I stopped going there because of this.
Comment by Martha (October 17, 2007 @ 2:00 pm )
Amy, thank you so much for addressing this! I don’t want to hijack your thread, but I just wanted to address the issue of WIC brought up in comments #7 and #13.
First of all, this is just my opinion and experience. I hope no one who feels strongly on the issue will feel that I am in any way demeaning another for the choices she makes for her family. I think the key in sharing our opinions is to be sure we do not project any attitude of self-righteousness or criticism of another.
My mother used WIC a long time ago, when we were young, my father was unemployed, and money was very, very tight. She didn’t know much about the program, but assumed, as one commenter did, that it was paid for out of our tax dollars, so why not use it, since we were genuinely poor and weren’t abusing the system?
When others (it was a small town) saw her using the WIC coupons, they assumed that the coupons were food stamps, and began judging her for her spending habits (she was on a very tight budget, and WAS trying to manage her money to the best of her ability) and spreading gossip. She would never have considered accepting welfare, and was understandably devastated by the rumors that began circulating. So I can completely understand the desperation that comes with hard times, and the difficulty when your actions and motives are misunderstood and judged by others. Please don’t think for a moment that I would condemn anyone for using WIC.
However, the WIC program really is just another government handout program. It’s a nice idea - to help women, infants, and children in distress - but it’s simply a social welfare system wherein the federal government puts itself in charge of dispensing charity. Yes, our tax dollars pay for it, just as our tax dollars support Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, social security, cancer research, and free needles for drug addicts.
I still persist in believing that the federal government is not the appropriate venue for social charity. The programs become watered down and inefficient with red tape and overhead, and bureaucratic waste runs rampant.
WIC seems to be one of the better programs, in that it has less of a reputation for widespread abuse as welfare does, but no matter how noble the motives or how well-run the system is, I still don’t believe that it’s right to participate in something like this. Government reform is necessary and inevitable, but meantime, I don’t want to contribute to the overload of a failing system. That’s just me. Now, I still do use the public library system! =)
That being said, the second half of my criticism of the social welfare aspect of government spending involves the impact it has had on the church. Not only does the government, in trying to do good, end up doing it most wastefully and inefficiently, but it undermines the motivation for individuals to do good because they assume that the government will just pick up the slack.
We, as Christians, are commanded to do good, to be generous, to give to those in need, to give away even our coat and our cloak. We must meet the needs of other believers, but we can only do so if they share those needs with us.
Have you shared your financial struggles with your local church? Are they praying for you and meeting your needs? That is one of the responsibilities of a deacon, to verify needs of those in the community and work with the church to meet those needs. The church and other believers will be blessed by giving to your needs as God commanded.
I know this sounds idealistic, but a big reason that such generosity is not more common is that government programs supplant the drive for churches to be alert for such ministry opportunities. During another period of unemployment, our family was blessed beyond measure one Thanksgiving by the delivery of three turkeys and several boxes of food that our church had quietly put together for us. We were extremely humbled, as in previous years we ourselves had contributed to such collections for other needy families, but we truly needed it and we thanked God for His provision. By turning to the government programs for help, I think we cheat God of the opportunity to show Himself strong in our need, as well as deprive other believers of the chance to cooperate with His plan in obedient and sacrificial giving.
Comment by Rose (October 17, 2007 @ 2:59 pm )
I had to work part-time when my children were small. I did work in a Christian ministry, and my children stayed with babysitters who were relatives and loved them. Thankfully, I took time off during the first year of each child’s life.
However, I am ecstatic that my daughter-in-law has chosen to be a stay-at-home mom. I’m thrilled that my adorable little grandson’s mom will always “be there” for him, and I will support her in any way I possibly can.
Comment by Cindy Swanson (October 17, 2007 @ 5:31 pm )
Great post, as usual! PLEASE tell about how you lived on $318 per week!
Comment by Valerie (October 17, 2007 @ 5:43 pm )
1. Prayers for you Kris!
2. I’ve traded the need for appreciation for how appreciative *I* feel when I see the kind of people my children are becoming. It’s nice to start seeing a little return on the investment!
Comment by Amy2 (October 17, 2007 @ 5:47 pm )
Amy,
I’m wading in deep posting on a girl-blog about working women and motherhood, but here goes. (Greg, back me up at any time…)
I found the response by Shannon very intriguing and challenging. In a time where most waver and mumble about whether to even bother obeying God’s
clear commands, it seems we should spend much more time on answering HOW do you work out God’s ideals in un-ideal situations.
THe other unspoken problem, though, is that we never seem to break the cycle of getting IN to un-ideal situations that were avoidable.
While I, too, shun the “lets both be lawyers so we can have three huge houses” mentality, I see alot of struggles here because of limited income. The two-fold problem is 1) we don’t think we can handle, nor are we content to live in a less-than-very-comfortable lifestyle. [you do a great job of addressing this one on a regular basis, so my comments are directed towards…] 2) the husband doesn’t have a job that will provide without extraordinary measures. (Now right off you need to see that I am talking to other parents and yet-to-be married young’ns….)
I do not see us teaching young men in the church to understand the practical realities of what it means to provide for a family. For perspective, ask a young man to consider, “Are the skills, training & degrees you have now going to provide for your wife and 10 kids when you are 30? Or 50+?”
Is the time to realize I need more training or a degree when I have a mortgage and 2 kids…or BEFORE I have promised to provide and protect a bride? I am not here to condemn the wife working her husbands’ way through school, I am just saying that if MY SON’s wife has to do that, I’ve dropped the ball for the next generation! (Young ladies, Don’t marry a guy for his money.. but if he’s only got a GED, than you had better be 100% willing to live in the lifestyle that is implied by his qualifications. His income does not force you to work outside the home, YOUR choice to marry him with unrealistic expectations does. Don’t complain,don’t leave him…just be content!)
I am NOT saying you should delay marriage & children just to gain wealth and buy Ferraris. I AM saying that it would be wise for young men (who have
the privelege to learn from our experience & mistakes) “go out into the world and make their fortune” so that when it IS time to take on the
responsibility of a family, they are prepared do so in a way that will allow their wives to ‘be there.’
When we moved to our country home, I was ‘permanent’ for the first time in my life, having grown up as a military kid and then in the Marines
myself. I always wanted that ‘town where I grew up’ thing for my kids that I never had. The reality of the Burkesville economy, though, is that it is
stageringly difficult to afford to grow up here and stay your whole life. There is a sense, at least for a guy, in which one must leave in order to stay. What is Home? It is where you leave from, and where you can go back to.
To the husbands fighting to get out of the rat race, I applaud you… (and Keren, you contentment and commitment to obeying God’s call in so many aspects is a tribute to you and your husband!) I just think we need to train our young men to plan wisely & strategically and do some of the hard work NOW for the family they will provide for later.
Comment by Eric (October 18, 2007 @ 2:06 am )
Thanks for your great post. It’s been an encouragement to me as I sometimes struggle as a stay-at-home mom.
Comment by Elisa (October 18, 2007 @ 2:23 am )
Amy- once, maybe 6 months ago, you said something that really changed my thinking… you said that, “It is easier to save money than earn money.” That is so true! Just wanted to throw that back into the pot in the discussion…
We’re counting down for you in the Peterson Home!
It is so very soon, even though it seems to be forever for you!
Comment by Petersonclan (October 18, 2007 @ 8:43 am )
Great post Eric! I printed THAT one!
Comment by Amy2 (October 18, 2007 @ 10:43 am )
Thanks for the great post!
Comment by Tiffany (October 18, 2007 @ 11:24 am )
Excellent post Amy. My thoughts are all over this one.
Amen to Eric that we should raise men up to be able provide for a family. My sister’s husband didn’t have that and now she must work outside the home. I’m very grateful that my husband is able to provide a very nice way of living for us.
Girls should also be encouraged to pursue degrees other than an MRS. degree because you never know what life will throw at you - death of a spouse, an ill child, disability, unemployment, infertility, etc. I have a career that I did for 14 years before I was blessed with children. Thank goodness I had it because I didn’t meet and marry my spouse until age 33. It enables me now to truly work from home 10-15 hours a week. My office is beside the playroom. I mostly work while my children are in Christian preschool 2 mornings a week and while they nap. I can make more money per hour than my friends do in 3-10 hours outside the home. I’ll admit, this money isn’t to pay our necessities, but it does enable me to help my husband with our adoption expenses, give money to my widowed mother every month, and yes, have cleaning ladies (which saves me hours every month that I can give now to my children or serve others because it takes 2 hours of office work instead of 8 hours of housework). And yes, it also provides for some luxuries like a vacation, etc. But I don’t work a 40-60 hour week outside the home so we can drive a lexus or live in a Million dollar home. That said, the point is I’m here with my children. My husband also works from home so our children are very blessed with being surrounded by both their parents.
My mom stayed home with 5 kids and we loved it. There were a few times that she worked outside the home - in the evenings or during school whenever my dad had lost his job and they got behind financially. It was an excellent example of love and hard work. We weren’t upset that she was away from home when we were in school, because she was there when we got home.
My cousin’s wife is a SAHM that homeschools and when my cousin lost money in his business he took on other jobs but is on the verge of bankruptcy and his wife won’t help out insisting that she must stay home all the time. I think that is a bad example for the kids.
My sister is a doctor that is now working full-time and her kids go to public school. They are the most spiritual and biblically knowledged children I know.
Bottom line, everyone has different circumstances. Some are called to work for money in our out of the home, some are called to homeschool, some are not - but we are all called to raise are children to follow Christ. We shall provide for our family, love and submit to our husbands, and serve others. But none of them shall take precedence to the degree that we seriously neglect one or the other.
One last thought, Proverbs 31:16-18 “She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks. She sees that her trading is profitable,..,:
So she was a business woman, who worked from home and made money….so this is a biblical concept after all.
Now I don’t mention Proverbs 31 to make anyone feel bad for not measuring up in every aspect of the verses. Lord knows I don’t. Quote from Staci Eldridge, author of Captivating - ” We’re all living in the shadow of that infamous icon - The Proverbs 31 Woman - whose life is so busy…..Somehow she has sanctified the shame most women live under, biblical proof that yet again we don’t measure up. Is that supposed to be godly - that sense that you are a failure as a woman?…
I guess we should own our choices in our situations but don’t judge someone who isn’t exactly like us, because then we condemn ourselves as Amy mentioned. I’m also preaching to the choir here too
Sorry for the long post
Comment by Marie (October 18, 2007 @ 12:29 pm )
Amy your lasts few posts have been very thought provoking and I love that they can be discussed here with no hostility.
Eric, could you come speak to my husband’s school. He attends a Bible college, not a Christian college. but a Bible college where the vast majority attend with plans to go into the mission field or ministry.
It has a very large married student population. However half have no kids (some planning to never have kids because they “are called to serve the Lord”). Those who do not have kids are all using birth control, most of them not using NFP. And their wives all work to put their husband through school.
The other half who have kids, over half of them work also, again to put their husbands through college and kids go to daycare or school. Now the half that stay home and have kids (this is where we fall in). Most of them have huge school loan debt accumulating and almost all get some type of government aid (healthcare, WIC, foodstamps…). And alot also have husbands who do work alot and do school and have no time for family. What’s the answer I don’t know. I have some opinions but right now I’m trying to lovingly follow my husband.(Although we continue to discuss alternatives for us). And these aren’t just “young men”. I think we need to focus so much more on family than we do. And I appreciate the wisdom we get from others, especially this blog:)
Sorry so long.
Comment by anonymous (October 18, 2007 @ 1:18 pm )
Eric, you are so right. This is the verse that comes to mind when dealing with a man being prepared to provide before marriage. Prepare your work outside; get everything ready in the field, and after that build your house. Proverbs 24:27
Because neither one of us were Christians until 5 years into our marriage my husband’s field was definitely not ready. I worked outside the home for the 1st ten years into our marriage. I had three kids in daycare/public school. It was such a trap. We were convicted early on that I needed to come home and also that it was not the state’s responsibility to educate our children. The question of how to obey God while living out the consequences of our own poor choices, was raised year after year. I was making more money than he and I carried the health insurance. We just couldn’t see a way out. Finally, when baby #4 was born we just couldn’t stand under the weight of our convictions and not trust God with the means to provide. At the time,(3years ago) my husband made $14 per hour and we lived in the SF Bay area. So, I quit, pulled the kids from daycare and public school and gave up the insurance. There is no other way to account for us “making it” other than God’s grace. But, I would not trade being there for my kid’s for one instant. My kids talk with distaste about their former life in daycare/public school often. There has not been one day that I have regretted or longed for the corporate world.
I do, from personal experience, understand what it feels like to be trapped by circumstances and see no way out. I know how it feels to be judged and excluded by SAHM’s. I also now know the other side, to be judged and excluded by women who can’t understand the God given desire to be at home with my kids.
But, as in my case, I think that MOST (heavy on the most)of the situations that we find ourselves in that prevent us from being at home, are based on our own choices, either present or past. Unfortunately, those consequences are experienced by our children as well.
May God give us ALL eyes to see His Word clearly and lean not on our own understanding, but in ALL our ways acknowledge Him, so He will make our path straight.
Comment by Tasha (October 18, 2007 @ 2:04 pm )
Hmmm, Eric. I think you have to be careful with that one.
I would much rather find a husband whose parents had taught him to run to the Word whether or not problems arise, to put the hand to the proverbial plow (whether it be attached to an ox or a commute or a scrub-brush) when bills arise, to consider it all joy to train in the nurture and admonition of the Lord when children arise, and to greet the Lord in prayer when he arises.
THAT kind of provision for the family is, well, priceless. The rest is, um, just money.
Just my .02, from a seminary wife whose husband’s calling came after he got his BA and right before he was to start law school. Oh, and after one of the kids but before the other four. And I am (arguably) ALL THERE.
Comment by Rachel (October 18, 2007 @ 3:14 pm )
Eric, thank you for that wonderful comment! I don’t think it would be possible for me to agree more.
Amy, great post, and very thought-provoking. Staying at home was something I struggled with for a while when we were first married, as we were working to pay off over $40k of (his-I was 18!) debt. By the standards of many people, we live on a great income, but his family thinks it’s just pennies. My husband’s cousin ‘can’t afford’ to quit her job … but their last home they sold was listed at over $4 million, and they have a live-in nanny. Seriously. Say that you like your job and don’t want to leave, but don’t say that you can’t afford to.
It can be a tough decision (staying home) if you try to compare yourself to the world, but my husband settled it one day for me. He looked at me and said, ‘I don’t want you to go back to work, and I don’t care what our families think.’ Oh. Ok, dear. Solved that problem in like 2 seconds.
I realized I had guilt over staying at home, because I didn’t know anyone else who did it, and wasn’t completely sure that that’s where my husband wanted me. Now I know, and I’m happy to be following his leadership.
Comment by Brea (October 18, 2007 @ 3:22 pm )
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Interesting post by Marie about the Proverbs 31 woman…..although I have to ponder whether she did all those things at one time….or maybe over her lifetime at different seasons? Just a thought….
Comment by Pat (October 18, 2007 @ 5:06 pm )
As a seminary wife, I really feel as though we need to re-evaluate what we are doing. If God has called our husbands into the ministry than he should be the first to set the example of provision for family and having his wife live our Titus 2, by loving husband, children and being a keeper at home.
I say this as my hubby struggles to work full time and go to seminary full time. He never would have me to work because he believes very strongly that this would be sin. He has shown this many times in our marriage where he has even went our and got three jobs to get us out of debt. We still must accept God’s blessing of children (we are having our sixth) and obey God by being a keeper of our home. I know it is so common for wives to provide for their husbands during seminary and this really saddens me. A hundred years ago it was common for missionary family’s to send their children to boarding schools and not see them for years. Our first “mission field” is to the little ones God has blessed us with.
I am not trying to sound harsh and I, in no way, have everything figured out. But Scripture teaches that if a man does not provide for his own family he is worse than a infidel. Maybe a man can take his time through school or pray for another way for his wife to be home. I know many will disagree with me on this.
Comment by Mist (October 18, 2007 @ 6:35 pm )
Wading through the rest of these comments, I wanted to “pipe up” one more time.
I use WIC. I’m not going to defend it because I don’t think I should have to. I work full time and I’m tired of defending myself.
Can we not be more compassionate to one another and realize Christ is creative in the ways He provides?
Sorry if this seems a little vented. But I find so little encouragement from the church as a whole and all I want is someone to comfort my tears because I have to leave my baby each day and I know without a doubt that this is what God has required of me in this season of my life. He has been merciful and blessed me so much during this dark time and just when I think I can’t take another step, He holds out His hand and pulls me along just a little further. So I know I’m where He wants me to be, I could just use some strong words of victory and grace to help me get through to the end. One day I will stay home, but today is not that day.
Let us not speak arrogantly to one another as Job’s friends spoke to Job thinking they knew exactly what his problem was.
Comment by Shannon (October 18, 2007 @ 8:32 pm )
Thanks Amy. I think part of my role as SAHM and wife, is that our family ought to be a blessing beyond ourselves. Engaging in meaningful relationships with other Christians and people who don’t yet trust Jesus is important. This is something that can happen in our homes as we welcome others. I would never have learnt to be a mum and a wife if it weren’t for other godly women sharing their family and home and lives with me. I think that often, in our important focus on being faithful mothers, we do it to the exclusion of people who live outside our home. In welcoming people into our homes (believers and unbelievers alike) we teach our children how to participate in the mission of making Jesus known in the midst of everyday life. We are also putting gospel shaped, Jesus exalting parenting on display which is a blessing to Christians and unbelievers alike.
Comment by Cathy (October 18, 2007 @ 10:12 pm )
Kris, It is hard to say how sorry I am, and other than prayer (which you asked for), I don’t know how to offer advice from afar.
*********
I don’t know when…but I will think about writing that post about how we did it on $318. Remind me if I slack off for too long. It really is a good story.
Comment by Amy Scott (October 18, 2007 @ 10:31 pm )
Amy, I agree with your post, and am always so glad to come across a blog where the author feels as I do on so many issues! I feel like an island sometimes. We live in a metropolitan area and the focus is go, go, go for both parents and kids.
The goal for my husband and me is for me to be at home and for our entire family to volunteer together. It has made all the difference in our family! I just wrot a post on my blog about volunteering as a family here:
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/BeccaBeard/403063/
Love,
Becca
Comment by Becca (October 18, 2007 @ 10:44 pm )
Providing for their families is ALSO a call for men. I think Eric’s point was that we need to train our sons in THAT call first, so they’re ready when they get the next one.
I’m always surprised that we are so quick to throw out Titus 2 when it becomes inconvenient. Surely God didn’t mean for me to stay home if He called my husband to the mission field? Second guessing God. Guess we didn’t learn from Eve after all!
Comment by Amy2 (October 18, 2007 @ 11:15 pm )
Just following from Rachael’s response to Eric’s comment. I think that it is dangerous to drive a wedge between a man’s ’spiritual’ provision for his family and his financial provision. How a man manages his money is a godliness issue. Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Church Seattle has some great sermons on this sort of stuff which my husband and I have found really helpful.
Comment by Cathy (October 19, 2007 @ 1:17 am )
I’m not trying to “drive a wedge between man’s spiritual provision for his family and his financial provision.” I’m just saying that one is far, far, more important than the other. I’m also not talking about someone who is squandering his money or is lazy. Of course that is wrong. But I DON’T feel like, “Are the skills, training & degrees you have now going to provide for your wife and 10 kids when you are 30? Or 50+?” is a question that has to be answered by financial means.
I don’t know…it just seems like the take on the answer to that question was that if you are not going to have “enough” money (and who knows what that is), then you need to wait on getting married…or having kids…or whatever. And I just do not 1) understand how you would know when you were going to be financially prepared, or 2) think that is the most important thing in finding a husband or preparing to be a husband. Is he a hard worker? Important question. Does he love the Lord and seek to follow the Lord’s leading? More important question.
But will he have enough money for me when we’re 50? And for however many kids we have? Huh? That just is not a consideration for me. Maybe it is for the women who live in predictable, static worlds. But where I live, there is no way to prepare for things like illnesses that debilitate, accidents that mutilate, or death that annihilates. Well, there is no certain FINANCIAL way to prepare for these things.
I don’t want my daughters to find someone who thinks they are financially protected from the world. I want my daughters’ questions to be, “Do you love the Lord? Do you love me? Are you willing to learn what it means to love me as Christ loves the church? Will we glorify God more by marrying than we would by staying single? Will we produce godly offspring?”
But I do 100% agree that women need to open their eyes, “buck up,” and stop feeling victimized when they go into marriage. Yes, they need to be well aware that they may not get everything their little “picket-fence farmhouse” dreams envisioned. But if they will fix their eyes on the Author and Finisher of their faith, they will get far, far more.
Comment by Rachel (October 19, 2007 @ 7:49 am )
I think (sorry Eric if I’m putting words in your mouth) Eric’s post already assumed that we were to raise godly men. That wasn’t even an issue. This is a Christian board, yes?
A godly man SHOULD already be thinking about being the head of his household, and how he is going to support that household. Yes, the Lord brings situations into our lives to grow us and our faith, but a young man who has a commitment to the Lord will have made a commitment to his future family, both spiritually AND financially.
If a young man wanted to marry my daughter and was still flipping burgers at 20 (without a “manager” nametag or a heavy class schedule!) then yes, I would question his commitment to anything except himself, and he would be having a serious chat with my husband.
Comment by Amy2 (October 19, 2007 @ 8:19 am )
Thanks Amy! Your last couple posts have really convicted me about *being there* for my children. Sometimes I am physically home with them but miles away emotionally. And that’s just as bad as dumping them in daycare, though I can tell myself I’d *never* do that.
I hope though, that as God straightens me out, my children will look back on my physical presence in the home as something wonderful. My husband also will work multiple jobs and put off his own desires in order for ourchildren to have their mommy, and I’ve realized that I need to honor that better in the way I spend my time and my emotions–my focus needs to be on them or my husband’s effort and sacrificed is wasted.
Comment by Margaret (October 19, 2007 @ 3:31 pm )
Lots of good discussion.
I was alarmed that someone mentioned their husband thought it was a sin if the mother worked outside the home. What bible is he reading? Ideally a woman should be at home with her kids but that’s not always possible or the better choice. It’s not a sin for a woman to work. Women should be the primary caregivers, but men should be raising the children too and if a husband is working 3 jobs to pay the bills when does he have time to guide the children? How about the mom stay home during the day and work in the evenings or weekend and the daddy care for the chlldren then?
Some have referenced Titus 2 (women are to be busy at home)- that should not be taken out of context. I believe the verse is more about admonishing women to take care of their families rather than selfish indulgences of too much alcohol, gossiping, adultery, too much socializing, etc. Great examples of women who are sinning by not following Titus 2 are tabloid celebrities and wealthy people who don’t even see their children daily. Granted there are some selfish women who put forth a career in such a way that a nanny wakes their kids and put them to bed, but most working moms I know are not like that at all.
Comment by Marie (October 19, 2007 @ 4:31 pm )
Please except this post in love for it is written in love. You will need to excuse my rambling I am sleep deprived. Can anyone relate? LOL!! I also hope I teach better grammar then I use as well, LOL :)! OK, as Christian women we need to lift each other up, not divide or tear each other down even when it comes in the form of correction or exhortation. The world does enough of this without it coming from inside the family of Christ. If a sister is in sin we of course need to go to her and point this out in love and go from there. Yet, if correction is a matter of opinion or interpretation over something that is not sin then it is not correction and really what purpose does it serve? Some of the correction and exhortations as well have sounded harsh and judgmental sorry to say, but some posts have come off that way. Now, I am sure no one here wanted to come off that way, but some did and it is hurtful. Especially to our sisters who’s heart’s long to be at home.
There are different view point and interpretations of Titus 2 and the Proverbs 31 woman. In a perfect world we all would love to be home with our children. For many of our sisters this is not possible during this season for many different reasons. We need to encourage them just where they are. So many are working to provide for their families immediate needs not to buy a vacation home.
We talk about our sons providing for their future families and the importance of an education or trade to make that possible. I fully agree that this is right thinking. Yet, we want our girls to also have an eduction or trade as well. What if her husband dies and we as her immediate family are no longer here? Should the local church step up and provide, yes, do they? Sadly, in most places no, not for the long haul anyway. We see that with the WIC posts. If our local body of believers were doing just that for other believers in their time of need then we would not need WIC as Christians. Now I am sure many churches are “Caring for widows and orphans in their helplessness”. It becomes tricky when a husband is not making enough for the women to be home. Unless it is a health related issue then I am sure that is viewed differently. The church looks at it as the husbands duty, so the need is not met. Unfortunately, for whatever the reason the husband is not able to fully provide then as a wife and mother it is our duty to step up and be a helpmate in this area as well.
Getting back to our daughters it is critical that we as parents especially fathers guide our daughters in who they should marry. My niece had a few young men interested in her at different times in her late teens and early twenties. My brother met with these young men and when he felt the right one had come he consented to their getting to know each other. He felt from the Lord all things considered most importantly spiritually this young man was the one. Yet, other factors and yes, ability to provide was one of the issues that was on his heart. He wanted the best husband for his daughter. He prayed for this young man, from the time his daughter was born. The Lord made it clear to my brother this was the young man he had been praying for, yet did not know personally for 22 years. A few times my niece was disappointed because she had like a few of them, but she yielded to the headship of her father over her. She was living in his home and she summited to her fathers authority. She is very, as we are, glad she was patient and obedient to God by honoring her father and mother. We want our own daughters to be prepared, trust God of course, but to also use sound judgment when thinking of the future. You would want candles and matches if the electricity went out.
This whole issue places division in the church which should not be. Let us pray that God will make the way, that the desires of our sisters heart’s to be at home will come to fruition. We can most importantly pray and also come to together as sisters to see what we can do for each other to make that a reality in some cases. Maybe it is a budgeting thing etc, but it may not be just that alone and they have to be outside the home. Let us then encourage that sister that God can and will do mighty things in our lives. To be obedient to Him (that is for all of us)and to press on. He uses all things for good.
Sadly, the least compassion I have received has been by well meaning Christians with their opinions. I do believe they were well meaning that is not a flip comment. All it did though was hurt me and make me feel worse. For example the homeschooling issue is another hot topic among Christians that causes hurts and divisions. I had to put my kids in school this year. I have two terminally ill family members. My Father in-law and my 80 year old Aunt. My father in-law does not know Christ. Yet, everyday he is seeing Him in our home. It was a decision my husband and I prayed about in earnest and felt the Lord leading us in this direction for this season. He provided an excellent Christian school. If not, it would have had to have been public school. That also is a ugly can of worms in most Christian circles. I am giving you theses last examples to show how issues can go on and on. I just could not do it all for this season. God’s mercy is in the middle he loves my, our children more then we do. All we can do is keep them constantly before Him.
Here is a big (((HUG)))) for all of you.
Maryanne
Comment by Maryanne (October 19, 2007 @ 10:05 pm )
Thankyou Rachel for the response, and thankyou Maryanne for the rebuke. I am sorry for not being more careful with my written expression.
Rachel, I agree very much with you.
I think that the goal of work and money and finacial wisdom is not white picket fences, but facilitating the proclamation of the gospel within our families and beyond.
I can imagine that Eric’s comment comes not from materialism but a realism that sees that the raising of godly offspring best happens when parents can spend lots of time with their children. It is a reality that avoidable financial hardship often prevents parents from being able to be with their children in order to instruct, correct, train and discipline them.
I think what he is suggesting is not mere financial provision, but financial provision that has the facilitation of spiritual provision in view.
Comment by Cathy (October 21, 2007 @ 9:11 am )
We are voting, as of today, for Mitt Romney. Heard a couple neutral things about Ron Paul, but after the debate and his comment about Iran…nope.
Comment by Ginny (October 21, 2007 @ 5:27 pm )
I was only able to glaze over many of the post earlier using the Evelyn Wood reading technique LOL!! Am I aging myself? Does anyone else remember the E.W. commercials LOL!! Anyway, I knew I had some other things I wanted to comment on, so I am back. My previous post was getting too long. This is part two =). Fair warning: I am the Queen of run on sentences and bad grammar………LOL!
As far as government agencies and the responsibility of the church goes, there are no black or white answers, yet many shades of gray. Both are imperfect because we live in a fallen world. When I speak favorable of people using government assistance I am not speaking of the abusers. I am talking of the ones who without a doubt need the help to survive. I am speaking in the practical sense. The government needs an overhaul for sure, as does the church and myself daily. Is it a trap? Does the church help if the need is known yet, does not meet that need for whatever reason? Theses issue are best left to others who can better debate them. I work in the trenches with people in need, real need, sometimes life and death need, daily. I see the good and the bad of both government and the local church. My viewpoint is based on what I see and work with pretty much day to day. That is what I mean when I say “practical” or “in favor of” when using government programs. Each case is individual and ideally it will be more then a hand out and more of a hand up. I have seen this happen many times which is what these programs should be about. Believe me what some of these people face is more then scary. The fear and the reality of being homeless, losing your children, not being able to clothe and feed your family. All that separates them from the streets or from their children going to bed hungry is a few hundred dollars a month. In many cases the WIC program is all that is needed other times different services are required. Decent hard working people just not making it based on their salary. Most have two or more jobs. It is sobering. Many are people of faith. God is providing through these programs. A lot of Christians do not want to see it as such, but it is true. I see much praise and gratitude given to the Lord for His provision from theses people for their families. I have seen people give thier lives over to the Lord in awe of the love and support from His people that came their way. The things they see that can only be the Lord working through His people. I can only go by what I witness.
As far as WIC, welfare, rental assistance and the like are concerned, for those who have to use them, I know they very glad it is available. I have been on both ends of the coin and believe me neither were fun. Read on for another short novel by yours truly.
Before I was married I worked as a bank teller in the town I grew up in. I was the food stamp/ welfare teller. Yes, I saw many people who abused the system in every way. My eyes were opened though to other who had worked hard all of their lives, yet would go to bed hungry most nights if not for food stamps. Also, single moms left high and dry by a deadbeat husband and father. Or the young girl with the promise of, “I will love your forever”, left with a baby to raise when forever looked better with someone else after a time. The look in their eyes when they came to me was one of pure shame. I did what I could to ease that shame, but it broke my heart.
We are birth/foster and adoptive parents. My foster children are entitled to WIC. We used it only for the infant formula. I had three babies under one more than once. At ten bucks a can, that money was used elsewhere for different needs. What comes to mind are DIAPERS! I was freaked the first time I had to use the WIC checks. Talk about being humbled. It was a new clerk who had to call for help with using WIC checks. It held up the line and now all eyes are on me. The young clerk and now the older head cashier both were being indifferent with me. Listen, customer service is bad in most places, but this was clearly something else. I was not a paying customer is how they made me I feel. Apparently it is what they felt as well. The young girl said to me in front of her boss who clearly knew better, “Wow, your lucky you get all your stuff for free when everyone else has to pay.” I was stunned. I looked at her boss with the HELLO?? look and she said nothing. I then stepped up and said, “Lucky?? Do you realize, I am sure you do (as a nodded at the head cashier) that what you just said to me is illegal?’ Actually, it is, stores get fined heavily for that kind of discrimination by their employees. “You both could be fired. I am not going to rat you out, but let me just say this. If you should ever lose your job for some other reason and you need to use WIC or any other welfare program. I certainly hope the person waiting on you does not make you feel as horrible as you both just made me feel.” They just stumbles over themselves saying whatever. I made the point and I meant it. I felt ashamed, the same shame I saw when I worked in the bank and what I see now in the faces of the families I work with. My second order which totaled over 300 dollars, you have to do the WIC separately, I paid for by check. I did not want to lose what small lesson I hoped I had just taught them so, I explained myself. I told them I was a foster parent to 8 children and the WIC was for the three babies. They immediately turned their look from your a loser, to your a Saint. I went on to tell them, “You do not know peoples stories, so please treat the “welfare” people with the dignity they deserve. I pray it will never be your lot, but it could very well be you one day. You have the power with your words to make a difference in someones life just by your attitude toward them. They/we are no different from you.” They both had tears in their eyes when I was leaving. I was glad I made them think and hopefuly touched their heart’s.
Just in case you are wondering I am a SAHM. The blessing we received from fostering has lead us as a family down many interesting roads. I have had to advocate on behalf of my children. To do this right I had to learn the laws and the loop holes of government agencies. One thing lead to another. I now work with women and children who are homeless, about to be homeless, victims of domestic abuse and just about every other sad story you can think of. I help them help themselves. Most days I never leave my home they find me. Especially the misplaced teenagers. My children we have 9, 8 have been adopted through foster care; call our family “The Mission-field at Our Front Door”! I love that! My husband and my children are in the trenches with me. Most people say we are crazy for many reasons, to many to list. All I can say is if God calls you to it, it is not crazy to you. We took a lot of heat from the Christan community for getting involved with the government by fostering. Listen, they do not want to take your kids believe me they have enough. Actually, they recently came to me if you can believe that about going into the churches to recruit foster parents. The “religious people” (I am sure nut cases was on his tongue LOL)mainly Christians he said are the best foster parents. They are piloting this new program and wanted some input form me and other Christian foster parents. We have NEVER hid our faith, on the contrary we made it clear to them. I gave them my thoughts and lead them to some other people who I believe will be able to really help them. My plate too full to do anymore then that.
My first mission field if you like are my husband and children. After my time and attention to their needs are met then I work with the others. I have learned when to say no or not right now. There have been periods when I could not do anything for weeks because of my families needs. I have learned over 12 years of doing this and many mistakes how to strike that balance. Like anything else, it could be the Lords work, right out of my home, but not His will if my first duties are not being fulfilled.
OK, sorry I digrest which I do a lot. Thanks for listening! I guess the Lord wanted someone to hear my off the path subject.
In summary I want to encourage you and myself as well to take into consideration all the diffrent facets of situations. So much is not seen and very complex. We need to be eaiser on each other. The greates of these is love…………
Blessings,
Maryanne
Comment by Maryanne (October 21, 2007 @ 11:34 pm )
I hate to be comment #61 AND switch subjects, but Amy’s got bigger fish to fry right now (read: baby)…and it needs to be said. [Amy, I promise this will be my first and last uninvited political comment on your blog]
We are only in the PRIMARIES, and I think it unwise to make pragmatic compromises based on who might beat Hillary. First and foremost, God determines results, WE are to be faithful and obedient. If you have two pagan pro-abortion candidates, then pick the lesser of two evils, or abstain you vote. With three openly professing Christian candidates, we have the luxury of studying closely and being picky.
Ron Paul is a pro-life, pro-homeschool Christian who reads, understands, and has, without exception, followed the Constitution while in office. He’s not perfect either, but take him seriously. His comments on Iran are very simple, and absolutely correct: unless you want to blatantly disregard the clear text of the Constitution, we cannot go to war without a declaration by the Congress. Iran may be bad and evil, but there is still a right & legal way to do things.
The question is not ‘good’ government or ‘effective’ government, but rather ‘is it legitimate?’ goverment. The church, even when it fails and shirks its’ responsibility, is still who Jesus left with the job of caring for the fatherless, alien, widow, etc. Biblically, the government has NO jurisdiction here. Even if you are an athiest, the United States federal government-purely from a constitutional viewpoint- has no legitimacy to operate as a socialist welfare agency. If you have exhausted the options of your family, then your church, then take WIC with my blessing..and don’t feel hipocritical for voting against it at the same time!
Comment by Eric (October 22, 2007 @ 5:54 pm )
The question is not ‘good’ government or ‘effective’ government, but rather ‘is it legitimate?’ government. The church, even when it fails and shirks its’ responsibility, is still who Jesus left with the job of caring for the fatherless, alien, widow, etc. Biblically, the government has NO jurisdiction here. Even if you are an athiest, the United States federal government-purely from a constitutional viewpoint- has no legitimacy to operate as a socialist welfare agency. If you have exhausted the options of your family, then your church, then take WIC with my blessing..
Eric,
I hear what you are saying, but life is not always so simple. If the ones who are left to care for you drop the ball then what is a mother to do? Unfortunately the government has to work as a socialist welfare agency. We have set it up that way by not taking care of our brothers in need. Sad to say, but true. If you have children who are hungry you will take food from whoever gives it to you. Weather that is the church or a government agency. Nine times out of ten the government agency is the only option available. Churches say they do not have the means, so they send people to these agencies. How many times have I knocked on the doors of churches asking for food or housing for a women and their children and they refer us to a government agency. Now these are good Bible believing churches who have for some reason come to believe that it is a viable option. I of course do not believe that, that is why I reach out to the church first. Unless it is Thanksgiving or Christmas then they have a turkey and a toy for your child. I sometimes asked “Is this person a member of our congregation?” Of course they are not, so they are beat. Do we just take care of Christians who are members of our congregations or are all men our neighbors? What is happening is the church is being drained financially and they do not have the extra left over for the least of these. Maybe that is why they are drained financially? Believe me the government agencies are hard pressed to just hand out money as well, it is hardier then you might think. I recently paid for two nights in a hotel, nothing great, but a roof over their heads for a mom and her two little ones. The housing agency called special response said she did not qualify. She was fleeing and abusive husband and her time in the battered womens shelter had run out. She works and had been searching far and wide for an apartment, good luck in NJ or most places theses days. It is hard to pay $1500.00 monthly and have a nickel left over. They said she made too much money? Three hundred a week with two children. Thankfully, after much jumping through hoops we were able to get help with the down payment, and some other services that will allow her to work as much as she can and still keep her kids. She had no other option. Was I wrong as a Christian helping her guide her way through these government welfare agencies? To be able to keep her children. No, I do not feel that before the Lord. I live in one of the most affluent counties in NJ and we have people; women and children living in the woods in tents! One church in the area has converted a bus into a facility were you can go once a week for a shower and get some supplies. They also provide propane tanks for the tents. We have had at least 4 deaths a year from people freezing to death. The church relies on their Church family and private donations, but is pushed to its limits. Forced this year to take a grant from the government to make sure these people will be warm this winter. How sad, the plea went out in all the local papers asking local churches and private citizens for help. Thankfully, some local people have pledged monthly to help, but that was it. So the choice is except the grant or let some of these people freeze to death. The elderly, women, children and the mentally ill make up the majority of the tent dwellers. The work it hard the need great. I am overwhelmed by the work. Our hands are tied. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Your point about government is true. But from were I stand it looks a lot better on paper or in debates then what is the true reality of the poor in our country. Things need to change NO DOUBT! That change has to take place in the hearts of christians. One person at a time. If half the professing “born again” evangelical christians in the US took a child out of foster care, there would be no need for foster care reform. No kids would be left. Being a Christian costs, it hurts, it is scary, but we all have to step up and do our part so the government has no place in giving aid because we took it back from them. My county does not have a homeless shelter, they do not want their housing prices to drop. That is why we have the tent city. We are pushing to have a spaced zoned legally to act as a shelter. A place for shelter, but more importantly hearing and seeing the love of our Lord. A place to help guide people with schooling or a trade, so they can transition into the community with a skill to provide for themselves. Daycare at a minimal cost once the women do have a skill and are working. Mentor-ships, biblical counseling all this free from government aid. I am praying and believing God for that vision to become a reality. There are no easy answers. No one I have come across dreamed this for their live. No one wants to take WIC or welfare it is a necessary evil if you will. Yes, there are always the exception, the abusers in my experience mostly men, sadly. Not that women don’t play that game, but that is the exception not the rule. I am not ashamed to say it, if I was called tonight and told the state has a facility and was opening a homeless shelter tomorrow, I would rejoice. Winter is coming…………people are dying. I wish things were different and they can be. We all need to play our part. Everyone can do something………prayer.
Comment by Maryanne (October 22, 2007 @ 8:55 pm )
We vote in January for the primaries…only a few months away. I realize this isn’t the national election, but it will be significant. My reference to Ron Paul on Iran was when he stated Iran poses no imminent threat to the US. I found that to be an odd thing to say.
As an aside, would “promote the general welfare” include providing help to those in need? I also don’t follow where the Bible prohibits government from assisting the poor and needy. Even Israel had a type of welfare system in allowing the poor to go into the fields and gather what remained, etc.
I don’t really want to get into a big political debate…just curious.
Comment by Ginny (October 23, 2007 @ 12:12 pm )
Hi Amy! Thanks for this blogpost.
My mom quit her nursing job soon after she gave birth to my oldest sibling; indeed, staying home didn’t make her any less of the nurse that she is today (she went back to nursing when we were in high school). And yeah, I agree with Brenda(#1) — ’tis only now that my siblings and I are older that we truly appreciate our mom staying home with us when we were growing up!
Comment by Tien (October 31, 2007 @ 3:56 pm )