Thoughts on contraception and the quiverfull movement
Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008
One of the neat things about our family is that we perpetually have a two-year-old in the house. Two-year-olds are great. Not only are they a lot of fun, but they also provide a ton of illustrations for life. In fact, my fifth child turns two-years-old today. We weren’t sure he’d survive this long with his propensity for eating bugs and jumping off high places, but he did. I’d like to wish him a “Happy Birthday!” but I’d also like a consolation prize for his stressed out parents.
The thing about two-year-olds is that you have to constantly be on your toes. They can be reckless and fearless. They push the boundaries, always on the lookout for a loophole or to see if Mom really means what she says.
I’ve often told one of my toddling children to stay in the family room. Here’s what they do. They go to the edge of the family room where the carpet meets the tile in the kitchen, and then they put their fingers, toes, and miscellaneous body parts on the line. They look to see if I’m watching. They weigh all their options. If I’m far enough away, they might put a scraggly toenail over the line and wait.
Christians are a lot like two-year-olds. They’ll read what the Bible says and then start looking for loopholes and lines. Instead of obeying the spirit of the command, they’ll look to see how much they can get away with before making a technical violation. Instead of just staying in the family room and enjoying it, they want to know what the rules should be if a meteor were to hit the house. It shouldn’t be this way.
The issue of contraception use among Christians is the same. We know that God thinks children are a blessing and a reward. We know that it is normative for married couples to produce children. We know that the world is anti-child and that God calls His people to a different standard. We know that abortificant means of avoiding children are wrong.
Because of these things, I’ve had eight pregnancies in the span of nine years already.
But as folks with straying, scraggly toenails, we also want to know where the line is. What is forbidden, what is required, and what is permissible due to our freedom in Christ? We know that we’re responsible to train our children up in the way they should go. We know that men ought to live with their wives in an understanding way, doing all they can to make sure that the one he is called to cherish isn’t crushed underneath a load that is too heavy for her to bear. We know that God’s commands—while difficult sometimes—are always freeing. We know that a man who doesn’t provide for his family is worse than an infidel. We know that our righteousness is because of Christ and not because of what we do. These things are also true.
The quiverfull movement (QF for short) is good for the support of its members. The culture has gone its own way off a cliff, but they’ve planted the flag. Raising a large family is difficult in our society. We do well to share strategies unique to the challenge. I’ve benefited from it. Where it strays course is when it assigns motives to those outside of it. “Selfish” and “not trusting God” are the catch phrases. I’m not willing to go there. There is not a Bible verse that allows us to do this to one another.
The Bible tells us, “Owe no man anything.” (Should we start an ONMA movement?) This command leaves us less wiggle room and also finds itself in the New Testament. The Bible talks about money a whole lot more than babies. Am I allowed to accuse a person of “not trusting God” if she owed a debt to someone? What about the person who is debt-free and funds the Great Commission because of it?
“Be fruitful” isn’t the trump verse of the Bible. If we were looking for the trump verse, it would have to be Jesus’ words to love God and love our neighbor. He already told us the main thing. (Question to myself: How well am I doing that?) How can we avoid one verse becoming the measuring stick of the condition of our hearts and the vehicle in which churches and groups are built upon?
The woman who has trusted God for the timing and spacing of her children does well. She ought to be praised. Where she fails is when she tells others exactly how they ought to do the same: all birth control is a sin. (A married woman who has produced a child has multiplied technically, were it about technicalities and not loving obedience to a good God.) Saying this isn’t postmodern, wherein one just picks out the verses they especially like and then tells everyone not to judge. The Bible doesn’t bind our consciences in this way, and so we shouldn’t do it to one another. We live with this tension all the time in Scripture. Circumstances don’t dictate theology, but yet we all make judgments and decisions based upon them. Women in China—where they forcefully abort your second child– have to decide in wisdom how to apply Scripture’s words.
Since I’m writing here to my dear friends who agree and disagree with me, it is only right that I am honest about my private thoughts. I’ve often wanted God to give me explicit instructions about my hyperemesis. Is it suffering for Jesus or for my own stupidity? What about the children I’m ignoring for almost a year while I’m pregnant? Can I assume they’ll be godly if left to themselves since I’m obeying the fruitful verse? How do I obey the dozens of admonitions to parent well when I’m not parenting during pregnancy? What about the deep darkness that accompanies nonstop vomiting? Does God have a plan for me? What is it? How can I know it? Does He care? How do I live out this tension?
We could play “Battle of the Verses” and sling it out. Or we could humble ourselves, asking God for wisdom in how to live out His Word. We could reason together without condescending. We could love one another, knowing that there really is a trump verse after all.
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I have struggles with this very issue myself. My husband and I have searched scripture and our hearts, we have sought out advice and prayed and prayed and even argued. The conclusion?….well, right now we are in agreement and I am trusting the leadership of my husband. I am at peace. I am thankful for a husband who takes the burden of leadership and goes to the foot of the cross for guidance. Blessings in your quest for guidance as well.
Comment by Kelli B. (March 4, 2008 @ 12:15 pm )
Happy Birthday, un-named little one! I guess we share our children’s birthday on more than one date! My wife and I had a daughter on Nov. 14th that was named Aimee Lynne and now today our other daughter turns four. (Where have the years gone?)
About the Birth Control, We were on the one extreme, absolutely no prevention, for a number of years, many of them while being single. After my wife and I had eight pregnancies in six and a half years, we started wondering about this whole concept. We now have six with us and three with the Lord. I love my children and I hope for some more, but I also know that if we do nothing, my wife will be pregnant almost solidly for the likely, next 14 years! Besides being emotionally draining, it is about to drive her insane with all the hormonal changes that her body is going through. We are now at the place where we are open to more children, but we must first put a little space
between the children to allow her body to rest. No, I am not talking about ten years either! But an understandable amount of time.
Paul tells us to “dwell with our wives according to knowledge.” It falls to us husbands to hear our wives and to seek God’s face for what is the right road for us. No, it may not be the right choice for you, and I won’t hold you to what God is asking of me. But we must not make the choice glibly or selfishly.
If our hearts are open before God, He will show us the path to walk. And yes, for some of us, that means that our hands are always full of sticky fingers.
Comment by Japheth (March 4, 2008 @ 12:21 pm )
Thank you so much for this beautiful, humble and insightful post. I have never known what side I fall on in the quiverfull “debate”. On one side, I love kids, I definitely desire a large family (my family is already large by “normal” societal standards with number 5 arriving in 2 months), but on the other hand (being VERY fertile, with having had 5 kids and 5 miscarriages in 10 years of marriage) I have never felt that 100% conviction that God requires me to “leave the timing and the spacing fully up to Him”.
When my health has required recovery, or life circumstances (babies, international moves, demanding ministry postitions) have weighed on us, we have felt freedom to take “pre-cautions” to allow us a pause to adjust to life, be good stewards of the jobs God has already given us. I am thankful that due to miscarriages and planning we have had 2 years to fully enjoy and nurture each one of our children before the next little bundle arrived.
It has never been a matter of us not “trusting” God, but more of a matter of us feeling that God also gave us brains, He revealed to us through science how pro-creation works, and gives us choices, asking us only to make decisions in consultation with Him and with right motives, not to just let loose and expect Him to step in and alter the course of nature one way or the other.
We never felt convinced that He 100% wanted us to just surrender this area and “go for it” and expect Him to overule the natural course of pro-creaton if the timing wasn’t right, for us that (conception) would be a consequence of our acting in the knowledge He has given us.
Your post really blessed me. Thank you.
Comment by Prairie Chick (March 4, 2008 @ 12:24 pm )
Thank you about being honest about the hyperemesis, it is something I suffered with both of pregnancies and felt the same way about my parenting suffering. I was hospitalized long term with both boys, and at times my life was in danger due to that and other complications. This made it impossible to be with let alone look after my son, leaving him to be looked after by others. I have often wanted another child or 2 or 3 but struggled with the issue of my responsiblity to look after the two I’ve been given. I’ve left the decision up to my husband and to this point he has said no. We are looking at both fostering and adoption, looking for the Lord’s leading in these matters.
Comment by Christina (March 4, 2008 @ 12:31 pm )
Beautifully wrote. What I was trying to say in the post below, but I’m just not as poetic. I will add, from my perspective as an infertile woman with adopted children that they are indeed a blessing and a reward.
Comment by Marie (March 4, 2008 @ 12:32 pm )
Well thought out and said, Amy. I agree.
Comment by Andrea (March 4, 2008 @ 12:37 pm )
Thank you for posting this and the balance. It is more important we don’t judge each other then to push our own convictions. You were bang on that the most important verse is loving Jesus and our neighbors first.
We have always wanted a big family ourselves. Just becasue you leave it up to him doesn’t mean you have lots of kids. We’ve been married 10 years pregnant six times (currently 7 weeks)and have two living children. This pregnancy is having it’s complications already and infertility made getting pregnant in differnt seasons non-exsistant…not matter how hard we tried :o).
Each of us have a path that he sets out for us. It can be hard enough simply to live it at times, much more with others making judgement calls. Encouragment goes a long way!
PS Your my hero….constant vomiting…ugh. I get sick but not like that.
Comment by Sandi (March 4, 2008 @ 12:40 pm )
Hey, Amy. First of all, Happy Birthday to your 2 year old. I have a 10 month old and can relate to your description.
Second, thank you so much for writing this! It is a wonderful balance of grace and truth. If you don’t mind, I really would like to link to it on my blog. I recently posted a little about the way Christians attack each other on this very subject after listening to a sermon on birth control. But you expressed what I was thinking so much better. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
Comment by terry (March 4, 2008 @ 12:52 pm )
Amen!! This one of the best posts I’ve read. I am a Pastor’s wife and in our denomination, doctrines are formed with certain Scriptures. You know…you can’t be a member of our denomination if you don’t follow these teachings. I agree with the teachings 100% BUT…what about all those other Scriptures that are not in our teachings.
I’ve told my husband that maybe it should be in our denomination’s teachings that women shouldn’t work. It is in Titus 2, right? See what I’m getting at here.
I’m not against the QF movement. God bless them. We need to populate this earth with some good people. But I am against a critical, judgemental spirit. Jesus might have called some a Pharisee.
I have 3 children. I do want more. We’d like to have a housefull. We have planned each one but I do not use birth control pills. I know all about that. But nowadays it costs lots of money to have a baby when you don’t have health insurance and we don’t have it. My last baby cost $8,000, and no I didn’t have a C-section. It was all normal. We just cannot
possibly afford that kind of money right now. I’d have to be “owing a man” if we were to get pregnant right now.
Who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to point my finger at someone because they are not doing exactly what *I* think they should do. Maybe I’m not adhearing to a Scripture they are folling to the *T*. We all must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and just love our neighbor. Leave the pointing to the preachers. God called them to it, not me.
I wholeheartedly agree that the trump Scripture is love God with all of your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Love covers a multitude of sin.
Comment by Nikki (March 4, 2008 @ 12:52 pm )
Excellent, excellent post, Amy.
Comment by Jeana (March 4, 2008 @ 1:18 pm )
Well said, Amy. I like that you pointed out the usefulness of “quiverful-minded” folks in finding ways to support one another…it is difficult raising a large family in the culture we live in today, both financially (competing with two-income families) and spiritually (constant criticism from those who don’t understand why you would want to “do that to yourself”.) It is important for them to have support networks for one another, and while I don’t consider my family “quiverfull”, I certainly appreciate the logistical advice that families larger than mine can offer! I admire those qf women who go about their business raising a large family for Jesus even though I do not share the same absolute conviction they do in regards to the spacing or stopping of having babies.
That said, as you pointed out, it is true that we as Christians are always walking that line of tension between personal conscience and conviction and the application of scripture in our dealings with one another. And when we group ourselves together by a specific conviction, we do need to careful not to let that lead and allow an “us vs. them” mentality to prevail.
Again, well said. Thanks!
Comment by Sara (March 4, 2008 @ 1:41 pm )
Very well stated Amy. I personally am unable to relate to any of this since my last child and only child was born 24 yrs ago. Not of my own choosing. My body, God’s choice, hasn’t been productive since.
I do agree with your words though.
Comment by Kimberly (March 4, 2008 @ 1:55 pm )
Amy,
I have been enjoying your posts for awhile but have never commented. I really appreciated this post. I loved your trump verse, which is true. If you love God and your neighbors first the rest will come along with it.
I also think it is interesting in today’s debates on being fruitful that we can forget that God’s purpose for each wife is different. Some of the most important women in the Bible were barren, and then went on to have just one or two children.
Do we remember Sarah (just Isaac), Rebekah( Just Jacob and Esau), Rachel(Joseph and Benjamen), and Hannah( Samuel), Elizabeth(John the Baptist). Maybe being fruitful in God’s eyes is different for each wife and family.
I say this because sometimes, God gives you miracles of life, sometimes he takes them home. I have had three pregnancies, and two children. Trusting God is trusting who he is, not how fruitful he’s made you and the blessings he gives.
Comment by April (March 4, 2008 @ 1:56 pm )
Thank you for this post. My heart is full of emotions on this subject that I can’t seem to put into words, but I needed this. So again my dear sister in Christ, Thank you.
Comment by Mrs. S (March 4, 2008 @ 2:05 pm )
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have recently come across this quiverfull movement and wasn’t sure about it, but the main thing I felt was judgement if I don’t believe exactly what the movement does. I don’t think your post excused using birth control but I don’t think that it accused anyone of being “ungodly” if they do. I don’t beleive the quiverfull movement is something to base a lifestyle/mindset on. I think the Bible/God is the only thing that you can base your life on.
I agree with your idea that love is the main issue. People get pushed aside and pushed out with opinionated mindsets.
Comment by Reagan (March 4, 2008 @ 2:06 pm )
I actually have a question for not just you but others who have had many children. Do you breastfeed on demand?
I have a hypothesis that is really hard to prove. In looking at the Bible, unless you assume that women lost children at a regular rate most of those mentioned did not seem to have that many children given that the allowed and allocated time for “relations” was at the height of furtility. So, my hypothesis that that “possibly” the breastfeeding on deman for a number of years reduced (not eliminated) fertility rates.
Now in this day and age and with some parenting ideas breastfeeding on demand is seen as a sin. However, if it does reduce fertility it would stand to reason that God intended it to be a means for couples to 1. not prevent. 2. not be overwhelmed 3. be gentler on a woman’s body. But still enjoy the “quiverful”.
I myself breastfed on demand my first for 6 months. My cycle started month 7 and I became pregnant month 8. I breastfed on demand for over a year with my second son and did not have a cycle for that time. Not to say that women can not get pregnant without a cycle or get a cycle while breastfeeding on demand but I wonder if the rates are simply reduced to an extent.
I promise I only ask this as a means to prove or disprove my hypothesis. I am still trying to convince my husband of the quiverful idea. He insists on stopping at 4 “arrows”.
P.S. Love your blog
Comment by Colleen (March 4, 2008 @ 2:09 pm )
Colleen,
I agree with your hypothesis. Longer and different breastfeeding methods suppressed ovulation for years, giving women the biological break that they need.
I began thinking about the issue and how sin affects our broken bodies when I became pregnant less than 3 months postpartum. Would it be OK to observe a natural period of rest that was obviously biologically designed but that my body didn’t observe? [This would require NFP which is forbidden by the QF movement; in the cases of premature fertility, I believe it is wise.]
I also suspect that waiting times were longer in days gone by due to the medical/physical nature of it. Anyone who has experienced a barbaric childbirth knows what I’m talking about. Fortunately, that’s rarely the case anymore with modern medicine.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 2:36 pm )
I haven’t had a chance to listen to Mark Driscoll
(I’ve never heard of the guy before now), but will get to it eventually.
Like many of your readers, my husband and I struggled with how many children to have and the practice of birth control (emphasis on practice since, w/ten kids, I didn’t seem to get it). We finally concluded, after the first several kids, that we would trust God with the size of our family. That was what worked FOR US (note the caps), but one size does not fit all.
As I stated in one of my first comments on your blog, I have witnessed a movement within the Reformed community (and I’m Reformed in doctrine) that says that if you don’t homeschool, have large families, etc., it is sin. No joke. Those families, while genuine and faithful to Christ, seem to stay to themselves. Almost all are characterized by “stay-at-home” daughters (no college for most of the women), large families and homeschooling. Further, some of them advocate home churches, i.e., they meet in the home with a select few who adhere to their way of thinking.
This is NOT a criticism, but rather a plea to fellow believers to live and let live. I don’t mean to intimate that the lifestyle should be contrary to Scripture. May it never be! However, on the nonessentials, enjoy the differences in thinking and thought. Use those philosophical differences as a means of discourse. Don’t let them be a stumbling block to the real order of business, i.e., to let our lights shine before men so that they’ll see our good works and glorify God. Don’t let those differences keep you from fellowshipping with other Christians who don’t think exactly like you do. After all, as brothers and sisters in Christ, we have the same blood coarsing through our veins.
As far I’m concerned, birth control, large families and homeschooling should be left to the individual conscience.
As believers, our lives are to reflect Christ. I have a hard enough time obeying that command. Sigh…
Comment by Cathy (March 4, 2008 @ 2:42 pm )
I have a lot of QF friends. I hope they will take a stab at your question here.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 2:47 pm )
Sorry. I replied to Rachel’s comment under the wrong thread.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 2:50 pm )
Amy,
A quick question..and a sincere one at that :).
Were you following “ecological” breastfeeding when you became pregnant at 3 months? If you say yes, you’re going to really scare me!!
Comment by mamashortcake (March 4, 2008 @ 2:54 pm )
Amy and Colleen-
You both make excellent points about the physiological “break” from fertility that frequent breastfeeding may or may not provide. The early fertility that Amy references is almost certainly the result of our hardy, 21st century bodies, well-tended as they are with good nutrition, clean, plentiful water, and modern medical care. It is yet another interesting question of whether or not we interpret Scripture in light of a vastly different culture. I watched the Driscoll sermon, and much prefer Amy’s honestly to his. For someone with a background in philosophy, he commits many rhetorical crimes. The ad hominem stuff really made me cringe. I wanted to watch the sermon on humor to see if he could justify the biting comments he used to “lighten up” what is obviously such a weighty subject.
I so appreciate this discussion.
Comment by Patti (March 4, 2008 @ 3:13 pm )
Well, I would say I fall under the “quiverfull” mindset, but my thoughts are along the lines of Amy’s fifth paragraph. It is all a matter of the heart. Are we seeking what God’s word says on the issues of life? And, not allowing the world’s “theology” to screw up our thinking?
On a personal note, I breastfeed my children exclusively for the first six months of their lives. Then, I introduce solids, and I don’t wean the baby until about 11 or 12 months. I don’t have any cycle during that time. And, my first cycle(s) are not necessarily fertile. For us, God has spaced our children about 2 to 2 1/2 years apart - in my opinion, quite perfect (though, I wouldn’t mind them closer!).
Some interesting thoughts here.
Comment by Sheila (March 4, 2008 @ 3:28 pm )
This is such a touchy subject but I appreciate and am grateful for how you share your beliefs without shoving them on people and telling them they are sinning.
I’d love to have more kids. I have faith and trust in the Lord. I also have the blessing of beyond horrible depression during pregnancy and after which is made worse by each pregnancy. Watching what happened to my mom, who I got this from, after she had her sixth has caused us to proceed with caution. After our second child, and much prayer and contemplation and the depression worsening (I had no symptoms before my first pregnancy) we made the decision to sterilize.
We have always wanted more children but knew that I would not be able to carry them and care for our family. So through prayer and time and more prayer and more time, we found peace and an answer that fits with the scriptures we’ve been taught and studied. We kept in mind the mother’s health.
And we’ll adopt the rest of our children and live such so that we have the means to do so.
But to have more children for our family meant that I could not carry them.
I guess what I’m saying is, I understand times when birth control is necessary. I also understand and appreciate the concept of agency. I am grateful when couples take the time to prayerfully decide what is right for them with the counsel of the Lord.
Comment by Angela (March 4, 2008 @ 3:30 pm )
So here’s the ten dollar question: Is it possible to agree with what I’ve said and be quiverfull at the same time?
I’d say no. What say you?
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 3:39 pm )
In answer to the $10 question, I’d say no. Because the idea of QF is that we take no measures to control our family size or fertility, placing it totally in God’s hands, including taking no thought for the mother’s well being or any such thing, am I correct?
Hmmm…lots to think about.
Comment by terry (March 4, 2008 @ 3:46 pm )
Interesting thoughts about breastfeeding vs. fertility. I hadn’t thought about how healthier we probably are now vs. in the past and how that almost certainly affected fertility and spacing of children. My cycle has always come back at 6 months (so far). I have always breastfed on demand and my first son was still exclusively breastfed until 9 months of age (he refused to take a bottle or solid foods until I quit nursing him completely) and I had to wean him because he was losing weight as I was 3 months pregnant and no longer producing much milk. It does make you wonder whether the original design was more in line with not becoming pregnant again until breastfeeding ceased or greatly decreased. Although being healthier is certainly not something I want to give up. But you’re right, it’s almost impossible to prove now.
Comment by rachel (March 4, 2008 @ 3:48 pm )
Good post! Thank you for taking the time to write it. I have also heard Driscoll’s sermon.
kim from little sanctuary
Comment by kim (March 4, 2008 @ 3:52 pm )
Amy, your last question is one that I would ask, as well.
I have felt that we rather line up with the Quiverfull concept. I have been able to toss aside the things that I didn’t agree with. For example, I don’t believe in the extreme…such as if a woman has cancer she must continue to be open to pregnancy, or if an ectopic pregnancy occurs you should do nothing. (Resulting in death for the mother?)
But what does a person call themselves? If not quiverfull (which I have thought I was, but by that I meant I think that our society is anti-life and that not so many Christian couples even consider whether or not they should use any kind of birth control….not that I wanted to control other people.)
I have felt that the option is to say that “anything goes,” which I do not agree with either.
I’ve tried to come up with a “statement” that says something like “I don’t know what to call myself now. But I believe that couples should be open to life, and should not carelessly use birth control without praying and thinking about it.” You know, on-line, people are more aware. In my everyday life, contraception is no big deal in Christian families. It’s just something you do. How do you urge thoughtfulness and the possibility of more children without just waving a hand and saying,”it’s all good as long as you love Jesus?”
Side note 1: That was my first Mark Driscoll sighting. Interesting.
Side note 2: If you have already yelled extensively at me in the last week…the quota is filled. Peace.
Comment by Holly (March 4, 2008 @ 3:52 pm )
I say I LOVE your approach and your spirit as you deal gently with these issues..
And no, you’re probably not “technically” QF. Neither am I. But how I love the kids the Lord gives!
For us, we’re taking a couple of months out to figure out what went wrong with my last pregnancy. There are preventable causes of miscarriages, you know! I would shudder to think that someone might wag their finger in my face and tell me to get pregnant right away even if I’m guaranteed to miscarry because medical issues haven’t been resolved!
Comment by Amy from SD (March 4, 2008 @ 3:54 pm )
I would say no, as far as I understand the “Quiverfull Movement”.
(I use italics to differentiate between the verse they base the movement on and the movement. It is possible to have your “quiver full of these” as the verse says and still use forms of birth control. In my humble opinion. No where does God say how many is a “quiver full” and I don’t think it matters.)
Comment by rachel (March 4, 2008 @ 3:54 pm )
I have a couple of questions that are worth far less than $10. What if a woman who wants a lot of children is infertile? What if she wants to adopt, but the costs attached are so prohibitive that she can’t afford it? Is she somehow disobedient to Scripture by not replenishing the earth? Obviously, the answer is an unequivocal “no.” So, how then, is it construed as sin if a woman (and her husband) decide that they don’t want a large family? By today’s standards, more than two children is considered a large family. BTW, God can override our decisions at any time, so that even if one uses birth control, God can still give children.
Cathy
Comment by Cathy (March 4, 2008 @ 3:56 pm )
Wow. I’m glad to know that my husband and I aren’t the only ones dealing with these things. Few women in the circle of Mothers I know discuss these things. A lot of my friends have three kids and we all act like that’s a lot. I’ve only “met” women with larger families on-line. (Maybe the rest can’t make it out the door!) We’ve got two darling boys at 2 years and 6 months. After #1 was born, we wanted to wait a year until I got pregnant again and took measures to assist in that delay. One year and a week later, while still nursing, I was pregnant. After #2 we’ve hemmed and hawed, but finally in January decided to just see what happens.
After #1 my period returned on month three, but this time it has just started. We’ve prayed that we’ll have a bit of space between #2 and #3, but we’re just going with the flow. For us, this time, it’s what we have peace with.
What will God decide? I have no idea. We’re in agreement though to just trust in Him.
Thank you for your kind and insightful post. We’ll never please everyone, no matter what we choose. We’d best make sure we are focussed just on pleasing Him.
Comment by Kimberly (March 4, 2008 @ 4:06 pm )
The Quiver full movement has been hurtful to this momma of a smallish brood. I’ve found that it too often feeds the Hagar and Leah in a woman.
Let us remember that “quiver full” can’t be determined by the outward appearance! Strangers don’t know how big my quiver is–*I* don’t even yet know how big my quiver is! Only God knows how big my quiver is.
And if we can’t know the size of a couple’s quiver, how can we determine when it’s full?
Comment by Grafted Branch@Restoring the Years (March 4, 2008 @ 4:11 pm )
Thanks for shedding more light on QF. I don’t know a lot of QF families, but always assumed that we were in that camp. Maybe not…
I have infertility issues, but we have fostered dozens, adopted six, hopefully soon to be seven. God has created our family in a different way than most families, but His way is perfect. What joys and blessings we would have missed if I was fertile Myrtle. (Oh, I know I could sit and think about all the blessings I’ve missed by not bearing my “own” but who has time for that with seven under nine!)
Love the trump verse, Amy, and plan to refer to it as such in the future. I believe we can and should set the example for saved and unsaved alike regarding the raising of children. I get asked all the time how I do it, and I’m always happy to say it’s not me, but Christ in me. Some people’s eyes glaze over. Some get it.
BTW Christina, I sincerely encourage you to consider fostering/adopting. It’s a wonderful opportunity to live out James 1:27.
Comment by Lynette (March 4, 2008 @ 4:15 pm )
Excellent post.
Comment by Marian (March 4, 2008 @ 4:20 pm )
Wonderful post! I felt this was very balanced.
Comment by Mrs. Taft (March 4, 2008 @ 4:21 pm )
Someone asked if I was ecologically breastfeeding when I found myself expecting at three months postpartum.
Yes. She slept latched-on too.
Many of you know I have supply issues, but I don’t offer supplements until I absolutely have to. Back then, I hadn’t begun supplementing.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 4:23 pm )
Hi Amy,
I am sitting here at my computer and realise this has become almost a live discussion. I keep refreshing my page and there are new comments. LOL! Maybe we should actually have a live “chat”. I just want to say thank you for you honesty and openess. We have been very strong anti-birth control, and over the years the the Lord has really chastened us for the judgment we have given others in our hearts. Not even knowing their circumstances, or walking in their shoes, judging motives. It is only after humblings from the Lord and walking through some hard valleys ourselves that we have seen how much need there is for charity in the Christian community. Each couple needs to sort out these things between each other and the Lord. He deals with each of His children in the way perfectly suited for them. Although, we do not agree completely with Mr. Driscoll, I do think he had some wise words to say. We must be careful to look at the whole council of God. If fathers are truly taking their responsiblities seriously than they will cherish their wives. My dh has always had the approach that if we are viewing children as a blessing, then he must support me as much as he possibly can. He has been an amazing husband and father in this way. Too many men are like Mr Driscoll described and are out of touch with what their wives and children need.
These are hard questions, truly. But, may we each walk in charity one with antoher. Thanks Amy, I feel like you are a friend that I visit with often!
Comment by Mrs E (March 4, 2008 @ 4:26 pm )
Amy, I appreciated your approach to this: exhorting love.
Ought we show ‘love’ at the expense of truth? No. They go hand in hand. But pretty often we’re promoting gray (at least, nonessential) areas at the expense of love.
Comment by lizzykrsitine (March 4, 2008 @ 4:27 pm )
Okay, I kind of hesitate in asking this question, first because it’s not really any of my business, and second because the answer may be obvious,and so the question is stupid. Am I just not “getting it”? On the one hand I am reading that you are not QF, on the other hand looking at your pregnancy history I wonder how you could not consider yourself QF. What am I missing? How would you describe your practice (or not) of family planning, and how did you arrive at this?
thanks for addressing such a compelling issue. It is one that I think about every day.
Comment by Jenny (March 4, 2008 @ 4:32 pm )
Amy - This was a great post. I, too, am struggling with wanting God’s plan and desiring the blessing of more children and yet not feeling able to handle another pregnancy yet. Just another opportunity to pray:)
Comment by Shannon Miller (March 4, 2008 @ 4:33 pm )
“Instead of just staying in the family room and enjoying it, they want to know what the rules should be if a meteor were to hit the house.”
I love that line, lol!
I agree with Holly. I would have considered myself “quiverful minded” even though I only have three children; being that my husband believes that is enough. After this post (thanks, Amy!) I would consider myself Biblical Minded. I agree with God that children are a blessing. I also acknowledge that it is He that opens and closes the womb. I can also lovingly and humbly submit to my husband’s leading in this area knowing that he is being lead by the Holy Spirit just as I am.
This has afforded an opportunity to really think about the Quiverfull Movement. I’ve read the mindset on MOMYS that to not be Quiverfull is to be sinning (I love MOMYS and the wisdom to be had there, don’t get me wrong). But as Amy points out, this is not Biblical.
If you look at Quiverfull as a heart issue and not law, then I think, yes. I can agree with Amy and be Quiverfull-as the Lord sees Quiverfull, not man.
Lovingly submitted
Comment by Debbie (March 4, 2008 @ 4:43 pm )
I am wondering where you got the idea that the Chinese FORCE abortion for every child past the first one?
Comment by Rebecca (March 4, 2008 @ 4:47 pm )
Thank you - this was very encouraging for me.
Comment by Charlotte (March 4, 2008 @ 4:50 pm )
Mark Driscoll is a whack. And possibly a dangerous one.
I’ve listened to many a preacher like him and there’s only one way their ministry ends. And it ain’t pretty.
I grew up in a church that preached this kind of ugly QF theology. And yes, I do think it’s ugly. Because I’ve seen first hand women whose poor bodies are near to breaking after rounds and rounds of miscarriages, pregnancy complications, etc. I’ve seen kids with tattered clothes and poor nutrition because their parents couldn’t provide adequately for their needs. I’ve seen toddlers left to wander around alone in droopy diapers because Mommy is so sick on the couch from multiple pregnancies that she can’t watch them.
I’m sorry, but that is NOT what God intended, and no-one can convince me otherwise.
Then again, some women bounce back like a rubber ball and ask for more. More power to them. Their husbands can make enough money for all their needs and everyone is relatively healthy—then fine.
But to sit back and preach and condemn and excoriate women for not getting repeatedly pregnant? That is just so wrong!
If anything is sinful, it’s not the couple who uses condoms. It’s the people who berate them for doing so.
Comment by Elizabeth (March 4, 2008 @ 4:50 pm )
This is the fascinating thing, Jenny. I can’t be considered QF because I allow for the use of birth control done in faith (ala Romans), even if I do not use it personally. Like Holly mentioned above, there seems to be some sort of paradox here. I’m probably more quiverfull in practice, if you will, than the mom running on about it with her two toddlers. I’ve done the hard, hard work. I’ve paid a dear price for not using birth control (which I believe the blessing has outweighed in the end).
Where does the boasting come from?
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 4:51 pm )
You have written similiar posts like this and every time I read these even at 48 I feel sad that because everyone was getting their tubes tied after 2 children in our Presbyterian PCA church I had mine tied.I did have severe pre-eclampsia and was told it would have been good to do so because any future pregancies would have been harmful to my health.Also since I lost my mother at 5 due to cancer I was determined that I would rather be a well mom to 2 then a dead or unhealthy mom to 3 children!!
Speaking of breastfeeding,when I breast fed we were told to start solids at 4 months.I did nurse my daughter until she was 13 months old even when I had salmonella and my son for 16 months.
Comment by Tammy (March 4, 2008 @ 4:53 pm )
Well said. You already know my heart on this one.
Comment by Laura in KY (March 4, 2008 @ 4:54 pm )
Thank you, thank you. Your humble response is very refreshing in the midst of this battle. Thank you for reminding me that God’s glory is our ultimate purpose, not living by others’ standards.
May God continue to glorify himself through you.
Comment by Kimberly (March 4, 2008 @ 4:54 pm )
Right here. You can google for a few thousand more stories…
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 4:59 pm )
Elizabeth, um, I can only assume you didn’t listen to the sermon?
Comment by Sara C (March 4, 2008 @ 5:02 pm )
Thank you.
Also, the same is true for homeschooling. It is truly an admirable calling, but I would go so far as to say that it is a sin to project that calling onto other people and judge them for not homeschooling.
Anytime we are sure that we have all the right answers and everyone else should be doing exactly as we do, we are caught in the sin of pride.
Which is sticky, because there is only one right answer for salvation. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to that Father except through Him.
But therein lies a sort of answer–it is about His perfection, not ours. Those who boast must boast in the Lord. And the Lord is not about putting others down in order to feel better about ourselves; the Lord is not about imposing rules. Jesus was openly displeased when the Pharisees rewrote the Law to make it about following rules instead of living a life of love (hence His reset to remind them of the “trump verses”: love God and love your neighbor, Mark 12:29-31).
I love the Law and the whole Old Testament. I love them because they show me the heart of God. If I love God, I want to know Him, and I want to know what is pleasing to Him. The Old Testament and the Law help me to know God and to know what pleases (and displeases) Him… because the Lord never changes; He is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that includes the times of the Old Testament.
I read my Bible. I have read through it three times (please don’t take that as a boast–I am just stating a fact–some people have read through the Bible fifty times, other people spend their time organizing their closets and training their children to be helpful, and I admire that a lot). I continue to read my Bible. I am sure I have missed things. It is a very big book. But honestly, so far I have never seen the Bible say anything specific about homeschooling or birth control. It says we should multiply and populate the earth, but I think this is a joint project for humanity. Every couple doesn’t need to try to fulfill that command “singlehandledly.”
Where the Bible is not specific, we must have grace with one another. We can afford to do this, because the Bible is plenty specific where it needs to be.
Comment by ruth (March 4, 2008 @ 5:05 pm )
Wow, Amy, I don’t think there’s another blogger out there that balances truth and grace as well as you do. Thank you. Your idea of a “trump verse” is dead-on, and beautiful.
I’m confused by the commenter above that calls Mark Driscoll a whack and then goes on to agree with him–perhaps she had Mark Driscoll with a certain leader of the QF movement?
You know, what strikes me as very sad is that the QF seems to hold, in its very definition, that everyone MUST believe that way. What a shame. Because there are people like you, Amy, who take what is best about the QF movement, and what is best about the un-QF-but-still-sincere-followers-of-Christ, and you meld it into something beautiful and honorable and scriptural, and you have still managed to speak out in love and grace. I suspect there are a lot more people like you (possibly even within the “strict” QF movement). I sure hope there are, anyway.
Comment by Rocks In My Dryer (March 4, 2008 @ 5:09 pm )
I think you have some good thoughts here, and I hope this conversation is a fruitful one for you and all the readers you have.
A few years ago I wrote about the shift in belief my husband and I had on the quiverfull issue. You can read it here:
http://dollymama.blogspot.com/2005/08/quiver-full-anyone.html
The short version is that while the Bible is absolutely not clear on it never being ok to prevent pregnancy, it is clear about:
bringing up our children in the nurture and admonition of God (Ephesians 6:4), and my husband’s charge to take good care of me (aka loving me like Christ loves the church- Ephesians 5:25)
I think where QF fails is in what the Bible calls “counting the cost.” (Luke 14:28) I have lots more at the above link.
I think you are on the right track with asking some tough questions about whether or not your older children are going to be ok while you are out of commission. I can tell you that for our family, my older children were definitely suffering, as we needed to make sure we were being faithful to the children we had already been blessed with, rather than squeezing our eyes shut and plugging our ears and pretending that the quiverfull issue mattered more than anything else.
I would certainly encourage all Christian couples to examine their hearts and attitudes about childbearing, and not to just blindly set a number of kids to have a spacing between them. But, I think there is room, and even encouragement, in scripture, for wise and humble planning and a balanced perspective.
Comment by Dollymama (March 4, 2008 @ 5:27 pm )
Elizabeth,
I totally get what you’re saying. My contention, though, is in the sentence in which you said:
“but that is NOT what God intended…”
Exactly what didn’t God intend? Since God gives life, then who are we to say that isn’t what God intended? God is sovereign. How do we really know what He intended? Sorry, Babe, you know I love your blogs and your thoughts, but that sentence gave me pause.
Comment by Cathy (March 4, 2008 @ 5:28 pm )
I would like to say, as a mother of 8 who still has fertile years left…that it is not always easy to know what I can handle. Has anyone else faced that?
(And I’m not talking about mothers who suffer dreadfully, nor severe health conditions, nor those who suffer infertility, nor children who are uncared for because mama is so ill…. I feel great sympathy for those cases.)
If I had only had the children that I thought I could handle, I would have stopped at 4. (Well, maybe 2.) I don’t trust myself to know what is good for me. Given a chance, I will always think that I can’t do something, can’t handle something. (Again, not talking about broken bodies…talking about the normal pains and agonies of pregnancy and getting older…)
I think once a day, at least…on a GOOD day…I can’t handle this. There have been times in the recent past when my husband was unemployed, where we thought, “we can’t afford this!”
And yet, if I had not allowed God to work in our lives thru another child - I would not have given Him room to move, to provide, to make me grow even more.
And of course, every day, HE gives me reasons why I CAN do this, thru His strength.
So, I guess that is just another question. How do you know when you are relying on your own wisdom, and how do you know when you need to rely more on God’s wisdom or provision? (Sincere question. Hard for me to always know…)
Comment by Holly (March 4, 2008 @ 5:39 pm )
Love your remarks Ruth. Grace. God’s Grace is amazing.
Comment by JenMarie (March 4, 2008 @ 5:40 pm )
Elizabeth,
I think there are two ways in which we can look at this though. Having been one of those that was anti-birthcontrol, I can say that there are QF people out there who are truly desiring in faith to trust God with this issue. Yes, they may have baggy diapered children running around, they may have dirty faces because Mama is sick on the couch. But, they truly are seeking to walk in faith. They are trusting the Lord to take their frailty and insuffiencies and to work them for His glory. Charity is to be extended both ways. Those who are QF must extend it to those who are in a different place, and visa versa those who feel the Lord has led them down a different path must extend charity to those who are QF. My husband and I are STILL grappling with the b/c issue and we must love each other as we deal with these sensitive topics. So please, do not look upon these mothers who ARE seeking to please the Lord in the way they feel is best, even if it does not look the way we think it should look.
Comment by Mrs E (March 4, 2008 @ 5:41 pm )
Interesting question and my answer/opinion is completely mine. I am not trying to be sarcastic.
I have no children but how does one know that they aren’t just going off of their own wisdom by having LOTS of children??? I know christian, faithful couples who don’t have a lot of children who God led in a different direction than having lots of kids (they are actually in ministry. I think the idea is that THROUGH TRUSTING IN GOD you can handle anything. Sure, God is going to provide for you if you are faithful in obedience to what he has for YOU. Daily, I think to myself that I can’t handle certain things and I DON’T EVEN HAVE KIDS. I think God grows us in whatever situations we are in and that if we are faithful he will provide. I don’t think we have to test God by saying “okay I am going to have a lot of kids to see how God will take care of us”.
Comment by Reagan (March 4, 2008 @ 6:02 pm )
Fasinating discussion. I am 40, have 7 children (18-1.5 yrs). We are not qf as defined. However, as I consider both “sides” I find myself benefiting from the qf mindset which says children are a heritage from the Lord and are a blessing, otherwise, as I look at our physical circumstances, small home, very modest household budget, etc. and the challange of trying to parent in a way that my oldest daughters do not feel like that have spent their youth mothering their younger siblings and wonder if I am crazy to have “SEVEN” kids. I find myself feeling jealous of Christian couples who have no problem stopping at two or maybe three. Our home would not be so small, our budget, not so tight if we “felt” likewise. I want to remind everyone who questions our decision, myself included sometimes, that our “lifestyle” was pretty much the norm a couple of generations ago. I spend a good part of my day REMINDING myself that God Word assures us children ARE a blessing and my husband and I are truely blessed. The qf mindset is helpful in this way. I guess I feel guilty either way. Guilty for maybe not “having” the children God “has in mind” or trying to justify having more in some pretty tight circumstances.
Comment by Deb H. (March 4, 2008 @ 6:05 pm )
I think Elizabeth is on the right track. It makes no sense to hold to a Biblical ideal while forsaking actual Biblical scriptures. Sometimes people who stick strictly to “anti-birth control” Biblical ideals while forsaking myriads of other scriptures of caring for the children, raising them in love and to fear God are often not “walking by faith” but walking either under fear of judgement of others or a puffed up pride in themselves. Neither of these are “what God intended.”
Comment by Colleen (March 4, 2008 @ 6:12 pm )
Amy… you have outdone yourself on this one! Beautiful, compassionate, seasoned with grace, compelling and thoughtful. You are a wise, wise woman!
We just had our sixth baby last summer and I’m 41 years old. I have used a variety of birth control over the years before the Lord changed our hearts(including the pill in my early foolish ignorant early days of marriage). My husband after baby number three had a vasectomy and we were happy campers… until my baby boy turned two and baby fever gripped me in a mighty way. Through a series of miraculous and too-long-to-go-into-in-a-comment-section circumstances, he had a reversal and I was pregnant before my husband went back for his check up!
After our little Hannah was born, my husband - against my wishes - had another vasectomy. I grieved so much over this because the Lord had begun to change my heart and I now began to see our fertility as a gift. The Lord granted us a ’second chance’. Who were we to turn down such a wonderful gift? Nine months later I got pregnant again! I considered our baby girl God’s special bonus for me! My husband’s second vasectomy worked just fine… it was that little ‘8 week rule’ we violated.
Then even more miraculously, over the next few years the Lord changed my husband’s heart on this issue completely apart from me. I was content with our five children though I would have loved to have more. My husband had his second vasectomy reversal two years ago and our baby boy is now seven months old!
It’s an amazing thing! My husband and I joke that we are in the Lord’s ‘remedial class’ of spiritual growth because we certainly are slow learners! Ha! He has seen fit to give us back the gift of babies TWICE! What a longsuffering and compassionate God we have!
I say all that to say I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I would not consider myself ‘quiverful’ in the sense of the ‘movement’ and its theology. I would consider myself ‘quiverful’ in the sense that we see children as a blessing and are trusting the Lord to increase our family as He sees fit. (I am on the backside of 41 here so we’re not talking many babies here.)
It is a blessed, comforting and easy calling for me. My pregnancies are easy, uncomplicated and my labors are quick. I have fabulous older children that make a new baby in the home hardly noticeable for all their help. I believe everyone has to weigh their convictions and situations in light of prayer and God’s word and decide for themselves. I am soooo not about legalism and imposing one’s convictions on others.
Your words were comforting and a blessing to me and I’m sure any wife and mother who is struggling with the issue… and certainly any mom who is struggling with guilt over it.
You are a tremendous blessing, dear Amy!
Comment by Lady Why (March 4, 2008 @ 6:29 pm )
cathy: read colleen (comment 62). that’s exactly what i meant by “not what God intended.” thanks, colleen.
also, my riff on mark driscoll was separate from my riff on qf.
Comment by Elizabeth (March 4, 2008 @ 6:38 pm )
Ladies, Don’t ask me how I know this, but a child with a saggy diaper and a dirty face can STILL bring glory to God.
Comment by Myfriendconnie@Smockity Frocks (March 4, 2008 @ 6:58 pm )
Thank you, Amy, for your thoughtful, gentle, and wise words on this sometimes controversial topic. You are a blessing to so many Christian women who seek encouragement from other Christian women in the blogosphere. Thank you. And “Happy Birthday!” to the Terrific Two in your home!
Comment by Caroline (March 4, 2008 @ 7:05 pm )
Good things to think about. I’m with you on the puking!
Comment by Debra (March 4, 2008 @ 7:19 pm )
Amy,
I’m 28, single, and I work for a Christian ministry in Colorado. There was no logical reason for me to start reading your blog when I did a couple of years ago. But ever since then, I return to your blog, looking for fresh encouragement to believe that I someday too will be able to handle the challenges and joys of marriage and motherhood, by God’s grace.
I’m not great with words but what I really want you to know is that your blog affects my heart every time I read it. And I read *a lot* of mommy/homeschool blogs (don’t ask why, it’s just one of my interests).
Thank you for just being you and for encouraging women like me, even though you may not know it.
http://www.esther2911.wordpress.com
Comment by Anonymous (March 4, 2008 @ 7:39 pm )
About the $10 question. I wouldn’t worry too much about that label. God knows your heart, Amy. Don’t worry whether or not you qualify.
I have nursed 5 babies, 4 succesfully. I prefer a “schedule” (please don’t freak on me) and I have found that my cycle returns fairly quickly. I think it is more about the number of feedings verses feeding on demand. If I had just added one more feeding I’d bet my cycle would not have returned. I have two kiddos 15 months apart and the third one 20 months later!
Amy, even though I have not had hyperemesis I want you to know that I sympathize with your thoughts and feelings on that issue. Thank you for being so honest.
And thank you for such a gracious discussion on this very controversial issue.
Comment by Janet (March 4, 2008 @ 7:42 pm )
Good thoughts, Amy. I have enjoyed reading the comments, too, especially Holly’s and Mrs. E’s…the sight of a baggy-diapered, dirty-faced babe and mama sick on the couch just MIGHT be an opportunity to bless someone. I would venture to question why so many are willing to step up and help out a mama expecting her second (sick on the couch with #1 running amuck) and yet once she passes the societal norm of two or three the state of her children becomes an opportunity for judgement?
I’ve seen more baggy diapered, dirty faced children due to mamas sitting at the computer than due to morning sickness, by the way…
Anyway, I hesitate violently to “label” myself as part of the QF movement. Although some might find that amusing since I’m expecting my 12th, I’m too tired to be emphatic about anything (LOL) and your post speaks truth enough without any input from me!
Oh, someone above mentioned Hannah as an example of a Biblical woman who only had one child. This is incorrect; she went on to have five more after Samuel (1 Sam 2:21).
Comment by Jenni (March 4, 2008 @ 7:50 pm )
I certainly understand your reasons for being hesitant to post on this, Amy, but I am so glad you did. We need to hear from more people who combine truth and grace as beautifully as you do.
We homeschool, we have four children and our ideas on dating are not quite mainstream. There are few to none at our church who see these issues the same way we do, and we often get snide comments, or are presumed “legalistic” by people who don’t even know us. There are, perhaps, churches where we would fit in better in practice, but these are the ones who lean toward thinking all of these things are sin issues. We don’t believe they are sin issues, we believe they are mostly wisdom issues; which is not to say that we think we are so much wiser than anyone else, it’s just to say we are choosing what we believe to be the wisest choice.
So it seems that when it comes to fellowshipping with other believers, it seems we can choose between being “the weirdos who are way too strict” and “the weirdos who are not strict enough.”
Which is a very long way of saying, it’s good to know there are others out there who see a middle ground.
And I realize my comment has nothing to do with birth control; I’m speaking more to the attitudes surrounding it.
Comment by Jeana (March 4, 2008 @ 7:51 pm )
This is such a timely post for me. Dh and I became Christians six years ago now (when we had a two year old and a baby), and DH and I decided that birth control was a sin right away. How could it not be, if children were a blessing, and infertility is a curse?
Everything was fine until I got pregnant much sooner than ‘expected’ with #5. (I thought breastfeeding would work like it had before, and hold off my periods for longer.) I got so sick and so tired, on top of having four little ones to care for. I was sick enough I couldn’t even sleep at night, and I was already dreading the pain of another birth. I kept wishing the blessing (my sweet little baby) couldn’t just show up on my doorstep, but of course that’s not how it works. I had to deal with the sickness and pain too.
It was during this time that I saw that I was making my Rules, my One Right Way, into something very judgemental and legalistic– and I was putting it before people and love and relatonships.
I realized some things (like never spacing babies, or always having to have home births) are just NOT in the Bible in black and white, and that we need to follow the Holy Spirit in these areas. That is what He is for- God wants us to depend on Him for leading and guidance, not man-made doctrine, even if it’s our own doctrine.
It some ways it was very scary for me, because it is easier to follow a list of rules than to wait on His guidance… But I am so glad I see now that you can be a good Christian and be led by the Holy Spirit to make different choices than other good Christains, who are being led in their own way.
So, after three home water births, I am going to the hospital and getting an epidural this time. If I start dreading the birth pain from the moment I see ‘two lines’ on the test, I do not think that I am acting in love. And after six years of trusting nothing but the natural man/laws of nature when it comes to conception… I am ready to trust the Holy Spirit and where ever he leads my husband, and then me, to do next.
This has just been my own personal journey, and sometimes I am still nervous about it. I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes… But in my more rational moments, which is most of the time!, I have peace about it and I thank God for showing me a different way when we needed one.
Comment by Anonymous (March 4, 2008 @ 8:25 pm )
I’ve tried to listen to Mark Driscoll twice and my pc closes down about 1/2 way through. I’ve gotten through his 16 points of a Christian world view but that all. Can someone summarize the rest?
I nursed exclusively for 6mos with #1 and #3 and exclusively for 12mos with #2. All three times my normal period returned within 2-3 mos of giving birth. (I also gained weight while nursing instead of loosing it!) Our bodies and I believe God’s plans for them are all different. Too, His Word stands and we yield.
Only He see ours hearts.
Amy, as I see it you are doing pretty well loving your neighbor through these posts!
Comment by Jenifer (March 4, 2008 @ 8:41 pm )
I think it’s not a question of bc vs. no bc, but rather humility vs. pride, grace vs. legalism, and love vs. judgment. I have seen people become very prideful on both sides of this issue, and I have seen them fall…hard. I was quite judgmental of those with large families for many years. I made all the rude comments that we all cringe at. I was very proud that I was such a wise steward of what God had given me and stopped at two. I sneered at the harried mothers of many, whose babies had saggy diapers and children had mismatched clothes.
I found out that pride really does come before a fall. I fell into depression. I wasted a lot of time looking for a “ministry” to fulfill me, not realizing that I already had one. God changed my heart. We denounced bc and have three more children. I battled pride over my new found knowledge, so glad that I had found the “truth”. I lost that battle more often than not. After our fourth, I sank into a horrible ppd. At the urging of my amazing husband, I went on meds for 6mos. and learned a lot about grace.
Here’s what I’ve learned: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I need that grace. Without it, I am lost, no matter how many children I have. I cannot compare my family, or myself, to others. I do not have that liberty, even in Christ. The women I most admire are those that are not spouting what they believe about birth control, pro or con. They are quietly raising their children, loving their husbands, and serving their Lord, seemingly unconcerned about what others are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.
Comment by Tara (March 4, 2008 @ 8:42 pm )
This post shows how you truly live up to the title of your blog. Thank you fellow sister in Christ.
Comment by Katy (March 4, 2008 @ 8:52 pm )
Thank you for the this wonderful, thoughtful post.
As the mother of 5 living and several miscarriages, and at the end of my childbearing years. I can say that the only child you will ever regret having, is the one you didn’t have.
Comment by Amanda (March 4, 2008 @ 8:57 pm )
I had terriable morning sickness with both of my children. I would love to have more but I would feel too guilty. Amy I know where you are coming from about being sick. Day and night and it felt like forever! Although I have two wonderful children it was worth it but it is hard thinking about getting sick like that again.
Blessings,
Renee
Comment by Renee (March 4, 2008 @ 9:02 pm )
Jenifer, comment #68 - I was having problems at first as well, so I went his blog which summarized the talk. Here is the link:
http://voxpopnetwork.com/vision/2008/01/06/christian-birth-control-options/
Comment by Andrea B (March 4, 2008 @ 9:11 pm )
In regards to Mark Driscoll: I listened and liked a lot of the content, but tend to agree that Mark Driscoll has some strange ways of getting his point across. He was rude and unkind which are not qualities to be desired in a preacher. I think his technique is dangerous in that he seems to desire to please his crowd which is not the intent of proclaiming truth.
I too have had guilt in both directions but find it helpful to remind myself that whether I have 2 children or 10 it is the quality of the arrow in the quiver that concerns God. What’s the point (no pun intended) of dull arrows…they will have no impact. The calling we have in regards to our children is to ‘train them up in the way that they should go’. So when focusing on how to parent as opposed to how many to parent the amount may become clearer in our individual situations.
Like all matters it always come down to the heart.
Thanks Amy for pointing out the heart of the matter and not how this looks practically in each of our lives. You made your points beautifully!
Comment by mel (March 4, 2008 @ 9:17 pm )
I know you’ve had a lot of comments on this topic already but I needed to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. This is a beautiful post written in absolute love. I have struggled a LOT with stuff I’ve read written by other Christian women that keep telling me I’m doing something wrong not filling my house to overflowing with children. The fact of the matter is that my heart longs for more but my husbands doesn’t. I believe God can and will change his heart if and when it is right for us. I can also understand my husbands position. I am not 100% well and haven’t been for a couple of years. A lot of the burden for the children falls to him. I can’t see that right now the time is right for us to have more. Maybe it will never be. Or maybe one day the desire in my heart to work with orphaned children will come true and our time will be used to parent other children rather than our own. God created us all unique and uses us in different ways. He really is bigger than all of this.
This is my first visit to your blog and I came here through a mention on Biblical Womanhood. Blogging and meeting other bloggers has been such a blessing in my life these past 12 months or so.
Thank you again and bless you!!!
Comment by Lightening (March 4, 2008 @ 9:26 pm )
Incredible post. I come from the opposite end of the spectrum: I cannot have children unless I take medication designed to cause me to ovulate. I have taken great offense at the QF movement, because by their reasoning, I should have NO children. I KNOW that the Lord blessed me with the two children I have. I also know that were I to have more, I would not be a good parent, despite the guilt I feel from the QF movement for only having two.
Comment by Kim (March 4, 2008 @ 9:30 pm )
Thanks Andrea!
Comment by Jenifer (March 4, 2008 @ 9:48 pm )
I just had to join in the discussion here. I grew up in a family of 11 children and I loved it. When I was first married, I was very firm in my beliefs that you were not to use birth control and to just leave everything in the Lord’s hands. Well, I still believe we are to leave everything in the Lord’s hands, but I also have come to realize that we have to use the brains that God has given us. My mom has really tried to warn me that although right now I am busy (I have 5 kids 8 and under), that the mental toll with older kids is quite hard. That really hit me since right now even though I am busy, I still feel like I can handle things. But according to my mom, the stresses of teenagers and of being in your 50’s and still having 10 years at least of raising children is very tiring. My husband and I want to do the best job we can of raising our children to be young men and women who really love the Lord, and we feel like if we keep having children at the rate we are, that we will not have enough time or energy to fully train them. Anyways, that is my two cents. Wonderful post Amy!
Comment by Jo (March 4, 2008 @ 9:50 pm )
I, like so many others, want to say thank you.
I have recently come across some rather harsh posts regarding this issue on blogs I frequently visit.
I have been blessed with two children. To be honest, that is more than we “planned” on. My point of view has often been this: “Isn’t it great that God makes people different. Some people long for large families, some do not want any, and then there those in between.”
I do not think small or large families are wrong. I do not think those who do not want children are selfish nor those who want very large families.
I have been insensitive in comments (unintentionally) I am sure. I have asked “How do you it?” to parents with many children. I do not ask because I think they are crazy for having such a large family; I ask because it is so different from what I desire or what I can handle. “Better you than me” is compliment from my lips, because I admire that you are able to handle it. Because I respect that God gave you the ability and the desire for a large family.
To me, the comments made by those who think I am wrong for having a small family are no better than the comments made to them about having a large family. Both sides only hurt one another. They only make the division larger.
Do I feel convicted by the statements and Scriptures used? No. Not when I find myself calling out to God for strength to make it through the day with just two.
So, again, thank you for your post.
Thank you for showing love. Whether you or others believe I am wrong or not, thank you for not accusing and trying to condemn me for a sin that is not my own.
Comment by L (March 4, 2008 @ 9:54 pm )
Okay, where does anyone get the idea that they have X number of fertile years left, or that they’ll have X number of children, if they don’t put a stop to it? An honest question. No one is assured ANY more children, just because of the “current pattern of things.”
Also, children shouldn’t be viewed as commodities. God can bless people in many ways, but there is only one way that results in an eternal soul. I think we live in a society where children are just another part of the perfect American plan: college, marriage, job, home, kids, retirement… That’s where I, as a Christian, get my back up, I guess. For some, children are just another collection (even, “Let’s see how many we can collect”), and for others, children are just a part of “what you do.” I don’t believe either shows God’s mind on the matter.
Another thought: It seems I’ve come across people who say they’ll “let the Lord decide” the timing and spacing of their children, until the children start coming - too fast, too soon, too many, with too much difficulty. Please know that I am NOT referring to those exceptions where there are serious health issues, etc. I’m talking about the cases where the going simply starts getting tough.
No one should be making anyone feel like crap for their reproductive decisions (unless abortion or abortifacient methods are used - then we have a duty to our fellow Christians to turn them back from the error of their ways). That is not loving. However, when I can personally testify to God’s goodness and faithfulness in my life, especially concerning the trust we have placed in Him regarding our family size, and if I can really show what a blessing children are (even the dirty-faced, imperfect ones!), then I will shout it from the rooftops!
Comment by Sheila (March 4, 2008 @ 10:15 pm )
Just some thoughts:
I agree with something I heard Chip Ingram say, that every man’s quiver is a different size. For some this may be a couple children, for some, MANY! (not direct quote)
I also believe that God gives us limits (spiritual, mental, physical, in every area). He is the author of limits. It’s up to each couple to PRAYERFULLY consider how big their quiver should be. My husband’s philosophy of # of kids is this: He’s called to a certain ministry in his line of work. He’s called to be a father and husband. His family size should be one that allows him to be MAXIMALLY faithful to the various callings in his life.
Also, the Lord in his wisdom has placed each of us in a certain country, in a certain time, in certain places and societies, with various callings. Our family sizes will be different than our neighbors, and different than people who lived 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago.
We just CANNOT BE SELFISH in our family planning. Our culture wants convenience and comfort. Even Christians are swayed greatly by our culture, I think, in just having a family that’s convenient.
Here’s another thought: What are all these people doing about the call to care for orphans? If someone is having baby after baby after baby… what about adoption?
I’m not saying we are correct and that others are incorrect, I’m just sharing our PERSONAL convictions: We have had 2 biologically, and are DONE bringing children into the world. We are SURE. We will adopt the rest of our children internationally (we’re in the process of our first adoption). We cannot ignore the call to care for orphans, and we believe REALLY caring for an orphan means adoption. God doesn’t just meet our basic physical needs, which is why we believe we can’t just commit our lives to only giving financially, or periodic mission trips, but we must ADOPT, modeling the Father’s grace to us.
We have absolutely no desire to bring many children into the world when there are so many already in the world in desperate need. We don’t want spaces in our family to be taken up by more biological children and therefore IGNORE those suffering. We know the Lord has placed this on our hearts.
My challenge to ANY family is, WHAT WILL YOU DO TO HELP THE 143,000,000 CHILDREN ALREADY IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE A FAMILY?
I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on adoption.
Comment by FIRST TIME READER (March 4, 2008 @ 10:19 pm )
I just read through some more comments from women who have VERY hard pregnancies….
Why not ADOPT??!!!
I’m not trying to get on a high horse, I’m just trying to be a voice for the voiceless! I don’t believe that every single Christian will be called to adopt. But I DO STRONGLY believe that it is the duty of every Christian to STRONGLY CONSIDER adoption!
Comment by FIRST TIME READER (March 4, 2008 @ 10:22 pm )
I like the Catholic viewpoint….
Comment by Holly (March 4, 2008 @ 10:24 pm )
Great post Amy. I could add some comments from the barren crowd, but will keep them to myself today. Thanks for being honest!!!
Comment by Marci (March 4, 2008 @ 10:49 pm )
Labels are difficult. That’s why discussion is good. So to answer your question, Amy, no I don’t think you are “quiverfull”. But that is not a *bad* thing….I like your approach–much more thoughtful, not so cut and dry.
Comment by Andrea (March 4, 2008 @ 10:50 pm )
#72: “I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes… ”
Oh my, that is BAD theology! Please don’t let those statements get to you! If you ceased having children, there are no children that “would have been”, therefore, no souls that won’t be in Heaven because of not getting pregnant. The lives that “would have been” just don’t exist, if God didn’t bring them into the world! And if a life wasn’t created (by God, via human parents), then it can’t be prevented from being in Heaven. That’s just horrible theology–you shouldn’t let those kind of statements affect you.
And besides, how do those people know that that child will become a believer and go to Heaven someday? We have no guarantee that our children will trust Him as King.
OK, I’m done being frustrated at those bad teachers for now!
Comment by kendra (March 4, 2008 @ 10:52 pm )
Amy, what a thoughtful and well constructed post.
Also some great comments. I particularly appreciated “I am trusting the leadership of my husband” and “Each couple needs to sort out these things between each other and the Lord.”
For me, this is where we are at. We have three living little ones (11, 8 and 3), have had four miscarriages, and currently expecting again in May. I have laid my heart before Christ, and for me it boils down to this - trusting in the sovereignty of God, and the appointed headship of our house (my husband). Therefore, I am not quite sure yet what will happen after May, but my husband thus far is confident (after much prayer and seeking God on his part) that this will see our family completed.
And really, it is between my husband, myself and God.
I embroidered a cushion some years ago that says “marriage takes three - God, you and me”.
Thank you again. Thoughtful, gracious discussion is always a good prompt for people to reconsider/re-evaluate how we feel about this matter, or any matter.
Blessings
Mel
Comment by Mel (March 4, 2008 @ 10:53 pm )
Good post. I’ve enjoyed reading what you and everyone has had to say.
Comment by Becca (March 4, 2008 @ 11:00 pm )
Amen. I appreciate your balance and thoughtfulness on this topic that too many have let become a test of spirituality and fellowship.
Comment by Barbara H. (March 4, 2008 @ 11:06 pm )
#72: “I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes… ”
Yikes, yes that’s actually a Mormon doctrine, the idea that there are souls just out there waiting for bodies. But the only picture in scripture is God breathing life anew into a newly created body (i.e. Adam).
Comment by Sara (March 4, 2008 @ 11:08 pm )
I absolutely loved this post and am going to link to it from my blog as I find it to be the most refreshing and balanced view on this subject I have ever heard! I totally agree that it is wonderful to have large families and be open to children, but that making rules about babymaking for everyone to follow is foolish. There are so many circumstances that could cause God’s leading in this area to be different for different couples. I would much rather have my husband or myself sterilized than have abortions forced upon me if I was a woman in China (and yes, it does happen ALL THE TIME THERE!) In circumstances where it looks like my life is threatened or my kids will be neglected for a pregnancy we would do everything in our power (non-abortifacient means) to avoid getting pregnant.
This summer we will have had 3 kids in 4 years and while we love them dearly and love children, we haven’t yet decided if God would lead us to stop having children after a few more. My husband has shown love and care for me in the fact that he believes we need to avoid getting pregnant using non-abortive methods/timing/etc. for a year after the birth so the baby can nurse for a year and my body can rest. I appreciate his concern for me in this as I feel myself ovulating about 6-8 weeks after the birth (yes I ecologically breastfeed around the clock and on demand!) and am VERY fertile (I get pregnant when our kids turn one year whether we try or not). Nearly all of my grandparents and great-grandparents had 12-18 children and fertility runs rampant on both sides so I’m sure I could be one of those women who has that many and most 11 months apart, but I don’t think it would be fun or healthy as I suffer from bad morning sickness too!
On the other hand it’s hard for me to not be judgemental of friends who make “seemingly selfish” calls on how many kids they will or won’t have even though they are Christians. I have to remind myself that judging is wrong, whether I’m judging a friend for having 10 kids and being exhausted and dirt poor or whether I’m judging my sis-in-law for saying she’ll only have 2 even though she has plenty of money and easy pregnancies. I need to remember it’s between them and God and I just need to be faithful to what He’s called ME to do. Thanks for pointing out what truly important in light of Scripture!
Anonymous’ comment (#72) angers me as it sounds like very Mormon philosophy. Is this really being taught by Christian pastors? Anonymous, please don’t fear this teaching as it’s not Biblical!
“I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes”
Tara’s comment (#74) was RIGHT ON!
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I need that grace. Without it, I am lost, no matter how many children I have. I cannot compare my family, or myself, to others. I do not have that liberty, even in Christ. The women I most admire are those that are not spouting what they believe about birth control, pro or con. They are quietly raising their children, loving their husbands, and serving their Lord, seemingly unconcerned about what others are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.”
Amen!
Thanks for another great post!
Comment by Mrs. Jo (March 4, 2008 @ 11:25 pm )
I love this post. Love all the comments. I think in todays time so many women are so confused…. to work or stay home,,,, if you work you are made to feel like you dont love your children like a woman who stays home. To homeschool or not…. same scenerio…. but if you do choose these things you seem by others to think you are better, and your children are too good to be with the other school children ( ive heard this comment far too much). And then this issue. Ive had a personal experience with this. Ive 5 children…. three of which are suprises from God… with in 2 1/2 years. For me it was almost too much both mentally and physically that after my 5th was born I would be pregnant within a few short months again. Plus I felt there was just not enough of me for the ones I had. So I had my tubes tied.
I think the two things in the Bible I think of when Im faced with scorns about this is that we are under grace not the letter of the law and God said to seek out our own salvation. Of course we can only get to heaven through Jesus but those things which God has not made clear we have to follow our own conviction without making judgement on others. Because even after having a tubal I still hear God speak to me and am still his child.
Comment by Amanda (March 4, 2008 @ 11:35 pm )
Oh Connie! You crack me up!
Oooooo girl. Now you’ve gone and stepped on toes!
Amy, you truly have the gift of eloquence when it comes to blogging on the most hostile issue in all of blogdom right now! Wonderful, moving post.
This is exactly how we feel about being open to children. We just are so over the label of “QF”. How sad is it that two letters can strike fear and anger into the heart of many believers. How is this advancing the Kingdom?
Honestly, I have been on both sides of this fence. For a short period of time I lost my head and went a little over the top concerning the issue. God graciously stopped me in my tracks and showed me my pious, idolatrous ways where children were concerned. And I do believe children can become an idol for some.
Children are a gift and a blessing. The Bible states it over and over, again and again. I think that fact is clear. But to be so dogmatic about something that it causes division is not, in fact, obeying the “trump” verse/command. QF folk talk a lot about dying to self. Well, in my humble opinion, sometimes dying to self means keeping your mouth shut when it might hurt another believer. And I’m talking to myself here too. While I am open to God’s blessings where children are concerned I can certainly love my neighbor at the same time.
Comment by Michelle (March 4, 2008 @ 11:59 pm )
Amy, I appreciated your post on this topic. I wanted to point out something about childbearing and the Orthodox Church - the Church that has been here since 33 A.D. Especially in the first thousand years of the Church, but even now, there are seasons in the year when married people did not “enjoy” one another. During the penitential seasons, Advent and Lent to name two familiar ones, abstaining from relations were, and I think are, important in teaching the body to be dominated by Christ, by the new creation. Just as abstaining from meat and dairy for a time and fasting regularly makes us more aware of our Lord and His Presence in us. All the abstaining and fasting teaches us how to discipline ourselves. Obviously, I suppose, that meant that children were generally born nine months from Christmas or Easter or summer months.
Those that advocate the full quiver, or any other teaching based on one or two scriptures, tend to forget that Scripture is not alone in its ability to teach us about how to be Christians. Those Scriptures went along with good Traditions that gave us the Life of the Church. Traditions like fasting that teach discipline. It is very easy to pick and chose verses, but unless you also understand the Life of the Church and Her Traditions that explain some of those Scriptures and why they were written, then you may very well be misusing Scripture and causing someone else to stumble, not to mention stumbling yourself.
I really enjoy your blog and I hope all goes well with your move to the country. We are moving at the end of this month and I don’t have half of my packing done yet! God bless you and yours!
Comment by Angela (March 4, 2008 @ 11:59 pm )
I had a friend who was a nutritionist and she told me that it takes a full year for a woman’s body to recover and completely heal itself after giving birth. This is part of how God made our bodies. We need to understand more of how we were created to understand what God is expecting of us.
Comment by maudie-mae (March 4, 2008 @ 11:59 pm )
I loved #85 Sheila’s comment about “children shouldn’t be viewed as commodities”. That really is the feeling I get from the QF movement (at least some of the extremists). That children are a goal to be achieved and not a blessing from God. It kind of goes against the verses touted.
As an infertile woman it’s easy for me to see that Psalm 127 and other scripture talks only about what a blessing children are, not a command. My adopted children are cherished as very special blessings. Yet I know of other infertile couples who didn’t choose adoption, but chose foreign mission work instead. So God’s will/work is done in both circumstances.
I admire and appreciate Christian women (and men) who desire large families provided they don’t make it a requirement of the Bible. My personal (not biblical opinion) is that everyone should be free to grow their family as they desire as long as they are capable physically, emotionally, and financially to do so and not planning to rely on goverment help.
I must admit how refreshing it is to read all the comments and how much love and grace is in all of them. I half expected this thread to be filled with comments admonishing those of us who don’t agree with the QF philosophy.
May God bless each family as HE desires.
Comment by Marie (March 5, 2008 @ 12:02 am )
I don’t like the undercurrent of the QF movement because of the pride of man, not the principle.
In fact, I spent a couple of years “wrapped around the axle” over whether to control my fertility because of an ectopic pregnancy and the resulting heightened risk of another.
And He impressed upon me something that I wrote about here. When I lock my doors at night it is wise to protect myself from the sin-stained murderous behavior of one that would desire to come into my home and harm me. When I buckle my seatbelt in my car it is wise to take precautions against the sin-stained selfishness that would allow another driver to crash into my car.
But only God can conceive life within the womb. Only the Creator can knit together a human being. With that in mind, against whom should I lock up my womb? Against God?
Comment by Grafted Branch@Restoring the Years (March 5, 2008 @ 12:07 am )
This is a 5-star post, Amy, with amazing comments to go along with it.
Random thoughts:
I too have eschewed the “Quiverfull” label. The only “label” I truly feel comfortable with is that of “Christian”. : )
I tend to view my womb as part of my living sacrifice to God, but try to strike a balance between vocal passion for what I see as an overall message from Scripture that we should be open to many blessings vs. not mandating what others “should” do in specific situations (risky, unwise and not my department unless asked!).
Smockity (Connie), your comment was a heart-melter.
Janet, I’m a scheduler too and have always felt like somewhat of an outcast online because of it. (I hope that’s not too strong for this nice discussion.) But my babies are bubbly, healthy and secure and are not the least bit neglected or at a loss for cuddles and bonding. (And no, they don’t have flat heads because I just leave them lying on their backs staring at a mobile for hours because I’m off doing other things. One blogger suggested this once! My littles are tummy sleepers, anyway.) Just as a certain ministry back in the early 90s cruelly mischaracterized demand-feeding mothers, so have scheduling mothers been terribly maligned in recent years on blogs and so forth. This is just one more area where we need to have love and grace with each other, and I have the MOMYS Digest (and the Lord!) to thank for showing me that different methods can work well for different families.
As far as spacing is concerned, yes, I admit mine are all very close together but ultimately I do believe God is the one who opens and closes the womb, regardless of how long we nurse.
One reason I’m so passionate (npi) about Christians having large families (*if they are physically able*) is not — I repeat, NOT — because I see it as some kind of barometer for spirituality, but because I really do believe we need to be fruitful and multiply for demographic reasons (as in ). No, I’m not hand wringing or keeping tabs on how many children other people have (gasp!), I just genuinely get excited at the thought of godly families humbly yet boldly taking over the world for Christ!
Love to all of you ladies!
~ Ruthanne
Comment by Ruthanne (March 5, 2008 @ 12:31 am )
Oops! Please pardon the red text at the end of my post (#103). I was trying to link to the URL for the documentary, “Demographic Winter” as an example of what I was referring to, but obviously I did it wrong. (It still links, but I didn’t mean to turn my words red!)
Comment by Ruthanne (March 5, 2008 @ 12:38 am )
Amy,
This is my first visit to your blog. I have a question for you. What do you say to a Christian woman who has never desired children ? I am 41 and happily married for twenty years. My husband and I have never felt the need, desire or urge to have kids. I have at times wondered what is wrong with me/us. At times I have felt guilty about it.
Comment by Lisa (March 5, 2008 @ 1:25 am )
Ruthanne, we ordered the Demographic Winter DVD last week. I cannot wait to see what it has to say.
As for the discussion here, I appreciate the point that we can refrain from using BC in our marriages, yet still not have to call ourselves QF. I particularly don’t like the dogmatic harshness that is prevalent in the militant QF circles. When I read in the QF book their advice to women who are severely ill or would be in desperate medical straits should they become pregnant again (advice which simply said that a loving husband should then abstain from marital relations!), I quietly closed the book and never opened it again.
I love having babies. I love honoring the Lord with my womb. Honestly, I love being counter-cultural (although the day-in-day-out is often tough!). Just don’t put me in a box.
Comment by Karen (March 5, 2008 @ 4:40 am )
well said
Comment by Ruth MacCarthaigh (March 5, 2008 @ 8:38 am )
[...] Wednesdays are busy days for me, but I wanted to be sure to link this post here because I found my own feelings about trust, faith, and following God mirrored in Amy’s. [...]
Pingback by Linky Dinky « One Thing (March 5, 2008 @ 8:47 am )
I was thinking this morning, and wanted to bring up the thought that poverty isn’t necessarily something that should keep people from having children. What we are measuring poverty by now is very different than in days gone by. A small family with a 200,000 mortgage and maxed out credit cards may actually look like they are providing for their children better than a large family in a small, old, BUT paid for house (with little or no other debt)…but which one is actually better off financially? That is another example of how it is important to not judge others by how things look on the outside. And at what level do we determine how a child is provided for? What is true need? Some may say that is private lessons, Walt Disney trips, and clothing from Land’s End. Others may say that it is food, clothing, and shelter, and lots of love!
We have many, many leaders in our past and present in our nation who have been born into quite humble conditions. These conditions did not keep them from greatness, rather, it influenced who they became.
Living with less is not necessarily bad - sometimes it can be very good, very counter-cultural. It allows God to provide, and removes some of our total self-sufficiency.
Comment by Holly (March 5, 2008 @ 8:57 am )
Thank you for this excellent post.
I am currently pregnant for the 6th time, having 2 beautiful daughters and having had 3 miscarriages(12 week scan tomorrow so praying all will be well). I have always found the first 3 months of pregnancy the most difficult, having now gone through it 6 times. This current time has had a significant effect on my family and myself to the point where we are questioning how many times we can keep trying. However this leads to guilt over not finding my strength in God who knows my situation. The post and comments have been very helpful.
It is interesting that in our church family we have one larger family, the rest have either 2 or none. On the surface many may judge that these families do not see children as a blessing. However most have been affected by recurrent miscarriage, infertility or other health reasons prohibiting further pregnancy. We cannot judge others from the outside - we are often unaware of the private and very painful circumstances which they have gone through.
Your encouragement to look to the Lord and the leadership of our husbands in this matter, and not to the opinions of others, is most timely and helpful. Thank you.
Comment by S (March 5, 2008 @ 8:58 am )
Karen, I started to read the Quiverfull book once but never finished because it was more anecdotal than I preferred. I really like Nancy Campbell’s Be Fruitful and Multiply because it gives a good overview of the Scripture passages on children.
I heard Gregg Harris share some great comments on this subject once. I really wish I could remember exactly what he said but I wouldn’t want to get it wrong by paraphrasing.
Also, in my last line in comment #103, “taking over” was a poor choice of words. I was really referring more to making a positive impact in a Great Commission sense. I do think Christians should aim to lead in all areas of life (also known as taking dominion!), but the words I used surely leave some with the wrong impression of how it should be done.
Comment by Ruthanne (March 5, 2008 @ 9:25 am )
“I began thinking about the issue and how sin affects our broken bodies when I became pregnant less than 3 months postpartum. Would it be OK to observe a natural period of rest that was obviously biologically designed but that my body didn’t observe? [This would require NFP which is forbidden by the QF movement; in the cases of premature fertility, I believe it is wise.]”
You know, Amy, that we were “quiverfull” before there was a movement. In other words, as young Christians, neither of us raised in a Christian home, we decided to take literally the verse that said that we were to “present our bodies a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable unto God, which was our reasonable service”. And so we had babies, approximately every two years. And we loved them.
It wasn’t always easy, but because we had our hearts turned towards God, we were able to bear the responsibility and grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. We found out that God really was (and IS) Jehovah-Jireh. He really did provide all that we needed. We went through some very lean times, but we always had food on the table and a roof above our heads. We also bore the criticisms of others who did not understand that our path was a path of faith. When I had my first placenta previa, Christian youth workers cornered my daughter (14 at the time) to tell her that her mother should now stop having babies…wasn’t the Lord trying to tell us something? Sigh.
Anyway, I NEVER, ever put pressure on other families to do as I did. I guess the fact that we had all those kids and homeschooled them was a slap in the face to some. They thought we were critical of them for not doing the same…but that was never so.
Where I was really taken aback occurred when Rick and I decided, after placenta previa number 2 and a miscarriage and a retained placenta where I nearly exsanguinated, that we would get my tubes tied. We heard from EVERYONE… so many who decided that we were without faith, that we were in error, that I was no longer a Titus 2 woman, because of my lack of wisdom. Women quit a group that I help to moderate when they found out that I wasn’t truly “quiverfull”.
Honestly!
I think it depends on how you define “quiverfull”. I define it as being a person who understands that the Lord is the One who gives life, and accepts as many children as God gives them the ability and the faith to accept. However, grace teaches me to understand that we live in a sin-cursed world, and that all pregnancies do not go according to plan. Babies are born too early, and die. Complications arise. Businesses fail.
I loved what Tara (post #74) wrote. She said it better than I can say it myself.
And I absolutely love your statement that there is a “trump verse”.
May God continue to bless your quiverfull, whether or not it grows.
In Christ,
Janet, mother of 12, granny to soon to be 16!
Comment by Janet (March 5, 2008 @ 9:37 am )
Great post! “Toeing the line” is difficult at any age.
Comment by Lisa (March 5, 2008 @ 10:08 am )
My husband and I have been prayerfully considering this very subject for quite some time now.
Before we married I wanted no children, but gave a gracious concession to my husband of two children (he wanted 4 to 8, wasn’t I so angelic.) After two kids, my hearts desire was for a third and then I asked him to get a vasectomy. He was very much against this. In the mean time I hated being a mommy. I saw my kids as a chain on my ankle, a burden to be borne. I was constantly being bombarded with notions of “going back to college” and “getting a job” and the like. I felt like I was drowning. There was the facade of loving my life but really being miserable with it. I often wanted to run away and leave the kids with my husband, because I thought they’d be better off that way.
I happened across and then read a book called “The Way Home” by Mary Pride. She wrote that book in the 80’s but oh, did it ever apply to me today. Now, I can’t technically call myself quiverfull, but this is the lesson that I learned from that book: CHILDREN ARE A BLESSING.
“Duh,” you’re thinking, right? I mean that they are a blessing in a way that is more than just having as many kids as possible. While I want more kids than the four I have, I think to truly view them as a blessing is the biblical command that God set out in the bible. I cannot find anywhere that God said to have lots and lots of kids, but he did say often that children are a blessing and if we see them as a blessing then we will treat them as a blessing, instead of viewing them as a burden, and resenting our roles as mothers and keepers of our homes. That is what I feel the heart of the matter is.
I think you short-change yourself and your kids (don’t get mad) if you only have one or two kids, but that’s totally an opinion base on my own experience; and I have no ground to sit in judgement on families with fewer kids. In the end, whether you have one kid or 12 kids, the important part is to view them as a blessing. Since God gently taught me this lesson, I have had such a heart change that I believe I am barely recognizable from what I was before. I love being a mother, a homemaker and a teacher. I am happier than I ever was before with this calling that God has given me.
I didn’t mean to sound so motivational-speech-ish, but its true.
Comment by Joanna (March 5, 2008 @ 10:08 am )
May I chime in with my 2 cents
We are both instructed to “be fruitful” AND to care for orphans. Just because you have “baby after baby” (a blessing no matter how you “view” or “handle it”) does not mean God cannot provide the means, strength, patience, etc to adopt. We all have character issues to work on–and we need to be actively working on these issues and be open, willing and ready to minister to both the bio-baby in the droopy diaper and the malnourished child in Africa desperately waiting to be a part of your family. We have 5 children by birth, #6 on the way, and have just adopted 3 (and working on #4) from Africa. So, we have 8 children, ages 8 and under and soon will have 10, ages 12 and under. I was scared to death before they came and wondering if I had a screw loose somewhere
It has been the most wonderful experience ever–I had to grow up quick
(I’m 30 and had originally “planned” on adopting when I hit menopause
I’m so glad that we didn’t “wait” –these adopted children are so incredible (ages 2, 6, 8)and the influence of our bio-children to them has been such a blessing!
Comment by Cindy S (March 5, 2008 @ 10:26 am )
Very interesting discussion! My husband and I discussed this before we got married last June… and I’m due with our first at the beginning of this month.
I have wondered when the next one will be on the way- I did struggle with dehydration/weight loss because of morning sickness, and I’m sure that will be a challenge next time when I can’t just collapse on the couch with sprite and craisins for the whole day! (Maybe sprite, craisins, and a stack of diapers???
)
I believe we should embrace children. And I think that means we’ll feel stretched past our limits. Sometimes, for years. My mom, unable to have children after I was born, felt very overwhelmed when an adoptive placement that was to change our family from two kids to four, turned into “Oh, we’ve had a problem, their two siblings now need a home too… can you take them? If not they’ll have to go to a shelter.”- and we ended up adding four instead! It was a huge adjustment and a huge commitment and we ate Domino’s pizza more during the next six months than we ever had before or ever did after. But was it worth it? Of course! And as my mom would testify, it gets easier as the years go by and you no longer have impossibly-closely-spaced toddlers, but impossibly-closely-spaced older kids instead!
Personally, I have beliefs on bc and family planning (and of course, I think I’m right
), and I guess others might classify my views as QF (I’d have to look into it more to figure out if I’d be comfortable assuming that label, though), but unless someone brings it up or asks my opinion, I don’t think its any of my business to say anything about what they’re doing. And I try to be careful not to assume- unless they say something, you don’t know whether someone is practicing birth control, or just not fertile, or maybe even actively trying to conceive. I have a friend still waiting and wanting a first baby- and a friend who didn’t conceive her first for a year. Appearances can be deceiving, and Christian charity is important… even towards Christians we don’t agree with!
Comment by Natalie (March 5, 2008 @ 10:55 am )
I read often but have never commented. I am on the other end of the spectrum. My husband and I both have issues of infertility. We have not used BC of any sort for 6 years and have never had a pregnancy. We have adopted one son and are so blessed. Would love to adopt more but also don’t want go into debt so are in waiting mode.
I am actually writing b/c I am hoping that the writer in #72 didn’t’ actually mean that infertility is a curse. I know that there are some examples in the Bible where God close wombs but I don’t’ think infertility is always a curse. I don’t believe I am less loved or more of a sinner so that God “cursed” me. For me infertility is what God has used to draw me to Him. It has been a very difficult trial but I am more sure of God’s love now then ever before. In that way infertility has been a blessing and not a curse at all. I thank God that He has brought me down this hard path and drawn me to Him.
Comment by Stacy (March 5, 2008 @ 11:13 am )
I believe this was one of the best things I have read on this issue. You weren’t trying to convince everyone one way or another, you were simply being honest (and as others have said, humble!). Thank you for that.
Lauren
Comment by Lauren (March 5, 2008 @ 11:50 am )
I’m really glad Janet (comment #112) mentioned Romans 12:1 because that’s precisely the verse God used to pierce my heart when I was grappling with giving control of my reproductive system to Him.
Now what I need to do is go back and reevaluate things in light of that verse when it comes to feeding my living sacrifice so much caffeine and sugar!!
Stacy (#117), I just found a long-lost old pro-life friend the other day. Years ago, when I knew her and she was a newlywed, she and her husband thought the Lord would give them many children. They were happy to be “poor but happy” if this were the case. They walked a journey of barrenness for eleven years before the Lord brought a little crisis pregnancy baby into their lives. (The baby’s father tried to kill it in utero with a baseball bat.) Now, in addition to little Daniel, they have three other precious children adopted from the same type of crisis pregnancy situations. It’s beautiful to see how God’s plan has unfolded in all of their lives. Hardly a curse!
Comment by Ruthanne (March 5, 2008 @ 11:59 am )
Tara’s comment #74, last paragraph…could have been the only comment published and that would have been enough for me.
Comment by C in Iowa (March 5, 2008 @ 12:08 pm )
Stacy, Great comment on the infertility. I am infertile and in the past when I was desperately trying to conceive I believed I was cursed, and God was frowning on me. After much prayer and study and revelation I know now that Satan wanted me to believe it was a curse from God when it wasn’t. You’re right, infertility is not usually a curse from God. Most of the examples in the Bible of God closing a womb was not because He was cursing the woman, but because He had Great plans for the child to eventually be born, i.e. Isaac, and Samuel and John the Baptist. Of course sometimes a person does suffer from prior sins(i.e. a prior abortion makes a woman infertile) but I see that more as a consequence than a curse.
It’s ironic though because pain in childbearing is a curse from the fall of mankind.
And as you stated, just as with most trials, the infertility has deepened my faith in God and drawn me closer. It also has given me a deeper appreciation for the miracle children by adoption that I now have. A once infertile woman doesn’t take her children for granted, every day I thank God for these gifts.
Comment by Marie (March 5, 2008 @ 12:16 pm )
Thank you for sharing this beautiful post, Amy, and also thank you to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Reading all of this has been such a blessing to my heart. My husband and I have not used birth control during our three years of marriage, and this has resulted in 4 pregnancies- two first trimester miscarriage, one second trimester miscarriage, and my precious daughter’s unexpected premature birth. Trusting God when His plan is not that on my own has been one of the most difficult and humbling experiences I have ever gone through, and since my second trimester miscarriage two short months ago, we have been led to seek medical care for a very possible auto-immune disease that might be contributing to my pregnancy issues. This new development was at first very devastating to me, but now I am beginning to grasp and understand that God might have different plans for me, and plans that might even include adoption.
Regardless of what we may or may not do for birth control in the future, my husband and I would never consider ourselves part of the “quiverfull movement” as we likely will not have ever have a large family here on earth. All too often, it seems that “trusting God with your fertility” and “quiverfull” are used as euphemisms for having a large family, rather than seeking God’s will for your individual life and circumstances and accepting the story He is writing for you, fertility and otherwise, no matter how much it might hurt and how much His plan is not your own. I think families of all sizes are beautiful things, and fully support my sisters who are mothers to a larger than average family, but oftentimes I have unfortunately found this support not to go the other way. Not everybody who never uses any form of birth control is going to have a large family, or even *any* children for that matter, but this reality is overlooked far too often.
Comment by Mrs. Brigham (March 5, 2008 @ 12:16 pm )
Hi everyone, I stumbled on to this website via a dishwasher repair question. We are expecting #4 after a dreadful slow down in China adoptions and I have always pondered the verse John 1:12-13
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
I wonder if we have some part in the decision making process. In life we get to make a lot of choices and every family is so different. I really hate the idea of artificial birth control because it works against our design but we have used natural means to space our kids our whole married life and I can trust my husband’s judgments on this.
Comment by Sara (March 5, 2008 @ 12:39 pm )
After reading your second to last paragraph, I thought that I would maybe email you and ask you about some of the questions that I ask myself. But then, you answered my questions in your last paragraph. And your answer is a confirmation to many things that I have been thinking.
Would you consider a post on humility? How does a mother, at the end of her rope, practice humility?
Comment by Lela (March 5, 2008 @ 1:06 pm )
I feel this blog entry so deeply! Just 2 years ago in Feb. my husband and I took our fertility into our own hands and he had a vasectomy. We had 3 beautiful children 3 and under and were completely and totally overwhelmed.
Not even 2 months later I knew we were Wrong! I prayed for God to intervene I asked my husband to have a reversal - he laughed! I was devastated!
It took a year of praying and seeking Gods word, verse after verse no where could we find anything other than Children are a blessing from the Lord and we should have them. Only People have decided that 1-3 children are plenty, leaving God out all together.
After over a year my sweet husband came to me acknowledging that we decided not God to stop our family and on Feb 18 this year we traveled to a wonderful Christian Dr, Dr. Leverett in Tx and had a reversal.
I am so blessed that this mistake was able to be fixed, it is overwhelming to think that only 2 years ago I didn’t want the family God had planed for us.
We are praying for God to blesses us with another child, and soon!
Days may be hard but the plans of the Lord are to prosper us not to harm us!
Comment by Happy Mommy (March 5, 2008 @ 1:19 pm )
Well just recently my dh and I have felt led that the Lord was telling us to give everything to him, including fertility. Right after we gave it to him within a couple of months we were pregnant with number 6 which will be here in September. I am not sure what the future holds but we have really studied this and I feel I am doing what God would want me to do. Thanks for this post and just knowing that someone out there does understand .
Comment by Tiffany (March 5, 2008 @ 1:22 pm )
Amy,
Thank you for your wisely written comments about this subject. I, also, am pretty fertile (on pregnancy #7 in 13 years of marriage - and we didn’t get pregnant until year #3). We, supposedly, prevent.
Oh, and I nurse on demand for a VERY long time (currently still nursing a tiny bit with my child who turns 2 in 2 weeks).
All this to say that God calls all of us to different paths. The Bible also talks about being celibate. How can you be celibate and fruitful and multiply?
I truly believe that we need to focus on being obedient to what God is convicting us of, and not focus on trying to convict others of those things! That doesn’t mean we can’t tell someone how God is working in our lives, or what He is convicting us of, but we need to make sure that we share those things as something He is saying to ME.
Thanks again for being humble in this issue.
Comment by Tonya (March 5, 2008 @ 1:29 pm )
Big Mark Driscoll fan here. I grew up in Seattle and attended his church in its early beginnings before moving out of state. We listen to his sermons online all the time. I have always appreciated his effort to uphold scripture alone as the ultimate source of Truth and separate the layers of church and human tradition that so often blur the absolutes, examining both liberal and conservative examples of these errors. And then pointing out where the “trump” verse must be applied when the absolutes are not explicitly stated in the scripture. This sermon was no exception. While we have never used any type of hormonal birth control because of our convictions about it, this sermon AND your post has helped me examine my heart for any self-righteous or judgemental attitudes that I may hold toward others who have a different conviction than mine. As our family grows, we will need much wisdom on how to proceed with our decisions about family size.
Comment by Ann (March 5, 2008 @ 2:55 pm )
I just deleted a long comment. Suffice it to say that Amy, you have very eloquently expressed many of the things in my and my dh’s heart and this post has been a blessing and encouragement. God brings each of us closer to Him and deepens our faith in many, varied ways. Who are we to judge how He works in someone else’s life? (Unless there is obvious sin that need to be addressed.) We have enough to do just loving Him and each other and making the lives and resources He has given us count for Him.
Comment by Another Heather (March 5, 2008 @ 3:08 pm )
I have not read all the posts, don’t have time to, and don’t have time to write everything I’d like to, or really edit what I am writing. But, here it goes, in 10 minutes or less….
We do not use birth control. It is our opinion that we should not use birth control, period, regardless of personal health, financial reasons, etc. Our children are 6 1/2, 4 1/2, 2 1/2, and 8 months, and I’m 25 years old. For the last 6 months, I’ve been experiencing joint pain and fatigue and a slew of other symptoms, with quite possibly an eventual diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis. It makes it much less pleasant for me to go about my day, though I am still able to do the things that need to be done, while letting many nice optionals slide. But, if the Lord gives me another child every 23 months for 20 more years, then I’ll take them.
We know Christians, including my beloved brother-in-law and wife, that use birth control. There are Godly Christians that are more mature than we are in many areas who use birth control. This is not a litmus test of a “good Christian.” We know a young family that would be termed quiverful that are expecting their 5th child and their oldest is 4 1/2, and they are struggling. As long as they are struggling and debating, we’ll encourage them to leave it in God’s hands, but if they decide to take it into theirs, we won’t bring up the matter. But, birth control does not fit with our understanding of God’s Word.
Our main reason for no birth control is not the be fruitful and multiply or the children as a blessing, though those are a factor. Our main reason is that Scripture says a gazillion times that God opens and closes the womb. It is made very clear that this is controlled by God, not random chance, not our efforts to time things, but by God. We would view using birth control as trying to dictate to Him when He may and may not.
Yes, He can override, but God often doesn’t override us when we assert what we want. He rarely forces blessings upon us. And you can’t be saying it doesn’t matter what we do, God’s perfect will will be done, because you wouldn’t waste the money/effort on birth control in that case! Given what Scripture says, it’s pretty clear that you will not conceive a child without God opening the womb. If you use birth control, saying no I don’t want this child now, then He may very well comply. But it reminds me of the verse about giving them the desires of their hearts and sending leanness into their souls…. If He doesn’t want me to have any more children because of my health, now and future, then He will not open my womb. If He does open it, then His grace will be sufficient.
Not as coherent as I’d like, but the best I can do….
Comment by HeatherHH (March 5, 2008 @ 4:41 pm )
Mrs. Jo said this:
Anonymous’ comment (#72) angers me as it sounds like very Mormon philosophy. Is this really being taught by Christian pastors? Anonymous, please don’t fear this teaching as it’s not Biblical! “I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes”
My response is simply this: Mormon teachings are simply that the decision regarding bc and family size is strictly between you, your husband and God. We’ve moved a lot over the years and every single ward/congregation/bishop/paster has held true to this. So please please please don’t think the Mormons feel this way.
I grew up in a family of 6 and figured we’d have four. But like I mentioned earlier I inherited depression which becomes worse with each pregnancy. Its life. And its what we deal with. But the counsel I have received from our most recent bishop/pastor is that its totally fine and ok that I will only have two kids. Its more than none.
Comment by Angela (March 5, 2008 @ 5:08 pm )
Mrs. Jo,
While the LDS position on whether or not families must have large families may have changed (as it did in 1998), the actual doctrine that the promotion of large families was based on in earlier LDS history has not, that is the doctrine that there are “spirit beings” waiting for bodies on earth.
“There are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty? -To prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 197).”
“The purpose of having large families was based on the LDS doctrine of eternal progression. Mormonism insists that all men are the literal offspring of the Mormon God (Elohim) and one of his heavenly wives. Every human being born on earth once existed in heaven as one of his spirit-children. However, if the spirit-child of God was to achieve exaltation and Godhood, it would be necessary that they become human and be tested and tried to be found worthy of such a position. “Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left them for a time. They wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that they have. To do this, we needed to leave our celestial home to be tested and to gain experience. We needed to choose good over evil. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies” (Gospel Principles, p. 14). ”
http://www.mrm.org/topics/marriage-family/large-families-no-longer-necessary-small-families-no-longer-sin
That doctrine of waiting spirits is what was being referred to as “Mormon philosophy” by #72. It is different from the Christian position that life is breathed into the body upon its creation.
Comment by Sara C (March 5, 2008 @ 5:30 pm )
Beautiful, beautiful post!
Man, I have really been getting it from all sides lately, and this is what I have been trying to say!
I struggle too, with wondering if I am whack out of my mind(did God really tell us to do this? 5 under 5 is kinda “crazy”), and wondering if I’ll make it to the “train up” part if I’m always pregnant or breastfeeding.
God recently answered me on this though:
I just had #4, 6 months ago.
It was somewhat traumatic with bad panic attacks, a 4 day labor at 6 cm and finally a transfer just to get an epi and rest(finally!).
So when my cycle started again at 6 weeks pp, I panicked and begged dh to at least pray about using something(I had no idea what).
We prayed, and His answer was as clear as 2 pink lines. I became pg with #5 at 3 months pp.
I know some will think “duh”! but oh how awesome! A child conceived that almost “was not”.
All we can do is “walk in the Spirit”. He will show us.
Great post.
Love it! Keep on keeping on and thanks for being so real with us.
You’ll never know how much you have blessed my heart.
Comment by Natalie (March 5, 2008 @ 5:32 pm )
Oops, that last comment was actually for Angela.
Comment by Sara C (March 5, 2008 @ 6:14 pm )
Cathy, because QF is not actually about numbers, but about accepting the blessings God gives, how many, and how often he chooses to give them.
A woman who says wholeheartedly “Yes” to children, but is infertile has a very different attitude than the one that says “No” or “No more”.
Amy, we fall under the QF umbrella, I guess, though I hestitate to call myself that because it seems to be becoming a near cuss-word among some Christians.
I just wanted to drop in and say I thought your scraggly-toenail example was so great. Obviously, you haven’t lost nearly as much brain matter as i have through bearing children, if you can still think up such great examples.
Comment by Margaret (March 5, 2008 @ 7:26 pm )
Natalie, you need practical help (meals, housecleaning, etc.) from the Body of Christ in your town right now.
Sit tight. Help is on the way…
God bless you, sister.
Comment by A Friend (March 5, 2008 @ 7:29 pm )
48yo mom of 12 here, ages 2-25 (8 still at home). My dh had a vasectomy after our 4th was born in less than 4 years. He was convicted about it (without me being Junior Holy Spirit) and had a reversal a year and a half later. At this point in our lives we wonder if we will have another baby but for us, birth control would be sin. We are not prepared, however, to say that it would be sin for someone else. Excellent post, Amy.
Comment by Charlotte (March 5, 2008 @ 8:08 pm )
I wanted to respond to Stacy about infertility being a curse. I have only once every seen it used in the way that you (stacy) took it, when God directly cursed Michal for her bad attitude.
However, many Godly women throughout the Bible suffered under this curse, Hannah and Elizabeth being two of them. Generally, when we call something a curse, we mean that it is something bad, something we suffer from, something that’s no fun to live through. We can say that Hannah and Elizabeth suffered from the “curse” of infertility without impugning their character or implying that they brought on the curse by their own sin. The point is, by Biblical principal, infertility would not be something wonderful to actively seek!
Comment by Margaret (March 5, 2008 @ 8:44 pm )
Amy, you said somewhere that your readers are “intelligent”… and I have to agree! I love “meeting” a whole community of believers in cyberspace!
Another great article, Amy.:) And I admire your wonderful attitude about 2 year olds. I wish I felt the same. I love the little guy but… grrrr! (He used to be so sweet and “innocent”!)
I also admired Natalie’s attitude about her 5th pregnancy - beautiful!
What Tara wrote (#74) was right on.
Thanks, all!
Comment by Rachel Joy (March 5, 2008 @ 9:05 pm )
Thank you so much for your post. I have been “lurking” on your website for some time. I, too, have enjoyed and gotten much wisdom and humor out of your posts (as has my husband when I make him listen to me read it).
With the return of my cycle after my fourth birth and fifth pregnancy in five years, my husband and I have been praying, researching and praying some more about what we should do and needed to do. Our original thought was, wait a year, let me get physically healthy and then see where God leads. I have gained over 50 pounds with all four of my pregnancies. This last one being the longest to get off (people still think I’m pregnant and he’s 8 months old).
I started to feel more and more like we didn’t need to do anything permanent (sterilization) but I also knew that, at the moment, I’m not physically healthy…on the way but not there yet. Your post and Mark Driscoll’s message has come at the right time. Although, I like the way you put it better than him…a lot more compassionate.
We’ve decided to enjoy our gifts that God has given us and probably pursue adding to our family through adoption within the year (or at least starting the process). However, by not doing anything permanent, we know we can be blessed with other biological children, should the Lord allow.
I love the gifts of life that God has blessed us with in the children he has given us and we want to fill our home with laughter, hugs, kisses, and screaming kids…however, we want to be good stewards with the gifts he has already given us.
Thank you again for your wisdom and insight in to such a sensitive issue.
Comment by Abbie (March 5, 2008 @ 9:24 pm )
Congratulations, Amy! I think you set a new record for yourself! 102 comments in the first evening! That is the first time there has ever been that many comments by the time I read a post! WOW! And it keeps climbing!
As for the post… It was so good. As others have said you mix truth with grace, and are always so kind. God has give you a talent for writing, and an outreach to so many woman through this blog.
I am not married so I won’t enter the birth control debate (though I do have opinions on the matter) since it isn’t even an issue for me yet.
I do want to comment on the sermon. I can’t say I disagreed with his basis for the most part, but I really didn’t like the how he said a lot of it. I especially didn’t like when he drug Vision Forum into it. I have never heard that from ANY of VF leaders (Doug Phillips, Scott Brown, Jeff Botkin, etc). I am sure that some VF followers have the very attitudes he was describing, BUT deal with the attitudes not the individual groups.
Have fun, Amy, sorting through all this. You are going to be too busy to post for a while just trying to get all this read!
Thank you so much for taking the time to write. I always look forward to a new post. I talk about your blog so much that all my friends know your name!
Comment by Anonymous (March 5, 2008 @ 10:31 pm )
Amy,
I think I’ve read everything you’ve written on this blog and this is my favorite post yet! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and struggles and joys about this topic. You put words to thoughts I’ve had but not been able to articulate! God cares about our hearts regarding these important matters! I know the legalism that can result from Christians judging others grieves the Lord. We so need to love one another! Thank you for such a beautifully written post!
Comment by Tina (March 5, 2008 @ 11:37 pm )
Regarding post 130, I think the examples in the Bible about God opening and closing wombs was pertaining to specific women, not necessarily every woman. Yes, God is in ultimate control but He set the world in motion and gave us free will. Children are blessings but I don’t understand the view that “God rarely forces blessings on us”. Women all over the world get pregnant when they didn’t plan/want to. It wasn’t about God forcing a blessing. I don’t concur with the thought that if God doesn’t want you to have more children because of your health then He won’t allow you to have them.
I agree with the QF philosophy that we should accept any and all children that God either places with us or allows us to conceive - meaning you don’t abort a baby. But using non-abortive birth control doesn’t mean you are refusing God’s blessings of children. That reasoning could be stretched to mean a woman who has cancer shouldn’t seek treatment if it destroys her eggs or a single woman is refusing God’s blessing because she prevented her eggs from being fertilized by being celibate. Or a single man. Paul states that it is better to remain single as he is but if you must then marry (paraphrasing).
Comment by Marie (March 5, 2008 @ 11:48 pm )
Wow, Amy! Your post and the comments following have been such an eye opener to me.
We’ve been married 9 years and have had nine pregnancies. Five living children (ages 7 years-7 months) and four miscarriages. There was a time that we both felt convicted about using bc. We stopped using all forms and trusted the Lord. I should also mention that I don’t breastfeed my children. So, we had five kids in 6 years. I thought we were fully on the “QF’ bandwagon.
Since the birth of our fifth child last summer, I’ve felt completely and totally overwhelmed. My husband had resigned from one of his jobs, it was a ministry job that provided our housing. So now we are down income, plus we’re putting out much more money a month in rent and utilities that we didn’t have during our full on “QF” years…lol. Add in homeschooling #1 and #2, as well as a moody 3 year old girl and a 2 year old…well…each day I go to bed feeling completely and utterly defeated. We’ve reached the point where we dread being together in a marital way (if you get my drift) because we’re scared to death of getting pregnant again. Believe me, we know children are a blessing and we would welcome any child He sends us. But we’re emotionally, physically and financially spent right now.
This has caused me to step back and think, how good of a mother am I to these children right now? How good of a wife am I when my husband comes home to an unshowered, tired, whiney wife (the kids are always clean..no droopy diapers here…lol, but I’m another story)? How strong can our marriage be if we’re afraid to be together? Am I also sinning by not giving into my husband’s “manly desires”? The list could go on and on.
I’m still wrestling with this and I wish I had the answer. We’ve been practicing NFP and I feel ok with that decision. But the QF philosophy is still in the back of my mind and I think I maybe I really don’t have enough faith.
Anyway, thanks for your post and to the other commenters for the discussion that’s ensued. It’s been very helpful to someone like me who is struggling daily.
Comment by Christina (March 5, 2008 @ 11:49 pm )
I wonder sometimes if the QF movement did not maybe start out just trying to defend themselves against the christian’s criticism of the ‘no more than 2.7 children’ mentality. They had to show that children are a blessing. It just became out of hand.
Just to make my point: I am pregnant with no. 5 and the silent criticism is deafening from my inlaws. They hardly knew how to congratulate us on what we thought was great news. They have never asked how far I am, how I feel, bla bla bla.
When it is your first or second, people will always ask about ones welbeing. When you step over that 2.7 boundary, it is like one is being irresponsible.
I cannot be natural with them. I cannot talk about my growing vericous veins, my tiredness or about the joys or sorrows of motherhood. I will be met with complete silence.. the almost ‘You did this to yourself. You should have thought about these complications beforehand. Don’t come and cry to us now.’ My hope is that they will understand what a blessing children are. I hope to be a good example to them and those with likeminded thoughts on children.
Is this maybe where the QF movement stems from. Trying to justify themselves and overdoing it?
Comment by Marita (March 6, 2008 @ 1:17 am )
Marita (145),
That’s an interesting point. We can become so defensive about the size of our families that it can become a point of bitterness on our parts towards anyone who questions our approach.
Comment by Jess @ Making Home (March 6, 2008 @ 3:25 am )
Amy, thank you for writing such a wonderful post. I love the dialogue that is going on here, and I think it will be helpful to so many women. I know it has been for me.
I wanted to throw out a question (that I don’t really know how to phrase that well)
Does anyone see any similarities between the way the FQ movement uses certain Scriptures to guilt women into avoiding natural family planning as to that of the guilt used in the Word-Faith movement? I’m sure there is some balking and sneering at that question, but at the root, is it any different?
Comment by Kat (March 6, 2008 @ 7:37 am )
Fruitfullness is a natural (not worked up) result of intimacy. In the physical realm as well as in the spiritual realm. Submission as wives isn’t today’s issue, Submission as the Bride of Christ, now that is where we need submission. If we submit in the Spirit we will sumbit in the flesh. Somebody totally submissively abandoned to the the Lord will not even think of “controlling fruitfullness”. It is an automatic thing. We can’t focus on what we can or can’t get away with. We just need to give it all to Him. QF has become a works thing, or a self righteous badge for many instead of an automatic thing. Fall in love with Jesus. It is that simple, He will work everything out.
blessings, Penny Raine
http://www.pennyraine.com/blog
Comment by Penny Raine (March 6, 2008 @ 8:18 am )
Thank you for a well balanced and well written entry on God’s family planning. Many people were blessed by it.
I pray that everyone will search their hearts and God for His will concerning their families.
Have a lovely day,
Gina
Comment by Gina (March 6, 2008 @ 8:25 am )
Hello Amy,
As a woman who has made bad choices in her life, and not having had the desire to seek her Maker about His will for her while making those choices, I find myself with consequenses and pain.
God in His wisdom though, makes things clean. He washes over my sins and deeply cares for my pain. To top it off, He loves me. My consequenses are for me to bear. My hurt is for Him to heal. My pain for me to share. No one can can make unclean the things that God has cleaned. It does us well in humility to apply the grace that was so generously given to us in all areas of life.
Thanks for your post!
Blessings
Heidi in WI
Comment by Anonymous (March 6, 2008 @ 9:23 am )
I am finding this post and these comments rather interesting. We are not by any means a QF philosophy family and never will be. It seems that many who follow QF get married young and have many children in their 20’s when I think physical and mental energy, etc. is at its optimum. We did not marry until our 30’s and hubby and I both find that our energy/limations are very different now than 10 or 15 years ago when were in our 20’s. I believe it is most important to know my limitations and not create children that I am unable to properly care for. My very wise, CHRISTIAN doctor told me “your child needs a healthy mother more than she needs a sibling”. We are expecting #2 and I am 37 years old and in my opinion too old for anymore after this one. This does NOT mean that I don’t fully love and appreciate the blessings that I believe my 2 children are from GOD.
Comment by rose (March 6, 2008 @ 10:01 am )
I am definately not QF. However, we have a big family and do not use any artifical birth control. I think this issue is more about surrendering our will than it is about how many children we have. It is allowing God access to all areas of our life and trusting Him with it all. I do not see any problem with NFP or non-aborfacient birth control as long as it is used in prayer and that is what God is leading. For our family there are no decisions made without prayer first. The same should be for our families.
There was a time where this would not have been a debate. I know my Grandmother always told me they had no options except to leave it up to God. She had 4 children. I have known other families who have left it up to God and had 2 and never conceived again.
I have to agree with the poster who stated that perhaps QF came out of defense. I also have felt defensive. We have both bio kids and adopted and we have taken a great deal of heat from our families, friends, and our own church. I have people say the rudest and most horrible things to us and in front of my kids. It is nearly impossible to not become defensive. Every child that has come whether through adoption or birth we have rejoiced over. People around us… not so much. We are adopting and pregnant. This will be my 6th baby and our 8th child. People have hardly acknowledged the pregnancy. When we brought our kids home from Russia (our 6th and 7th children) no one even sent a card, called, or gave a gift. It hurt beyond words. Especially from our own families. I am not sure I will ever get used to it. We are looked at as irresponisble and foolish. This is despite the fact we live a comfortable life… my kids have more than most and our home is very roomy with plenty of space. Not that those things matter, but I guess I don’t understand if we are providing for all of them , how are we foolish? We have never asked anyone for anything.
This turned into a book. Sorry…
In the end my point is… what is right for one family may not be right for another. I have people in the adoption community who think everyone should adopt. I disagree. We all need to care for orphans.. that does not mean we all need to adopt. In the same light I do not think every woman needs to bear XX amount of kids. It is between her, God and her husband.I closest friend has three children. She was so ill with her pregnancies that she lost 20 pounds with each one. That is a 60 lb loss in 3 years. She was SO ill with her last one and the baby was born at 3 lbs. She was 93 lbs after the baby was born. She is a GREAT woman of God and prays daily. She knows that having more children is not right for them. It is something she has grieved and prayed a lot about. How can any of us say that a very prayerful woman is making a bad choice? She trusts God fully and part of that is trusting Him that her time for bearing children is over.
I truly believe if we seek God with all of our hearts, He will lead us.
Comment by courtney (March 6, 2008 @ 12:08 pm )
Amy–
I really appreciated the spirit of your post, but as I have mused on it for a couple of days, I am wondering if you could clarify something. What, exactly, are you comparing to your metaphor of the two-year-old with his testing toe over the line?
Is there a difference between a two-year-old who goes immediately to the line to test it and one who plays obediently and happily in the family room for a long time and then becomes tired and hungry and comes over to the line to ask his mama for a change of scene? If so, does that apply to the way some Christians do things, too? Maybe not, since God never falls into inattentiveness the way a mama can. But still, I’d like to hear your thoughts.
I had three babies in less than three years. I literally almost died, between the post-partum hemorrhaging, the constantly circling viruses I shared with my children, and the depression I faced being isolated and far from family, sick with germs so that no other mothers with young children would come near us, not happening to know any women in the older generation. Also, I was sick for the full nine months with every pregnancy.
I still had a desire for more children, all the same. I had a miscarriage after #3, and then I had the fourth child almost three years after my third. It felt like a huge gap.
By this time I was really struggling. I had trouble remembering things. If children had ear infections, I had to make charts to post on the refrigerator to help me remember the medicine, and even so I made mistakes. I forgot dentist appointments and lost my gorcery lists. This was not because I was haphazard and unorganized; I made tremendous efforts to come up with systems to help me function. When they didn’t work, I went crazy with frustration at being thwarted when I was trying so hard. I began to be a screaming maniac. I screamed and cried every day, often at the children, sometimes just into the air. I lay on my face in the bathroom at night and asked God, “If you are my strength, when are You going to start lifting me up? I obviously can’t handle this in my own strength. I need You. Where are You?” And I wept.
I was not a good mother. More babies would have made me a worse mother. Simple fact. I prayed daily for God to cover over with His grace the sins I committed each day and thus protect my children from spiritual and psychological damage. I think He answered those prayers. My kids are awesome, but anger crops up in our home more often than I think is pleasing to the Lord.
This is not an issue of “trusting God.” This is an issue of being wise enough to evaluate a situation and properly allocate the resources God has given us to deal with it.
Truth be told, were it not for modern medicine, because of a bleeding condition I have I might have died after only one delivery, probably after the second, and if I had made it that far, there is no way I ever would have survived the third, which was horrific. I figure if it was modern medicine that kept me alive during those episodes, it might be common sense to use modern medicine to prevent a future episode.
I am certainly not “stopping souls from being born so they could go to heaven” if in a natural course with no medical intervention I would have been dead and thus no longer reproducing anyway. I would probably be dead if God had not chosen to have me live during this age, when these medical resources are available. But this is the age He placed me in. I think He might not be opposed to my using the resources He has, in His sovereignty, also placed in my path.
My husband had a vasectomy, but my depression and hormonal mood swings (very unbecoming temper tantrums) continued. Eventually, I started taking a hormonal birth control pill to help control mood swings. I figure that at least, with the vasectomy, this is not causing any abortive effects. I could take prozac or paxil, but the problem is definitely hormonal and is solved by the bc pills. There are scary and life-threatening side effects to the pills, but my philosophy is that ten years with a rational mother is better than twenty years with a screaming maniac.
I was not trying to close my womb or cut off my fruitfulness. I was trying not to turn into Andrea Yates. I do not believe this is displeasing to God.
Ruth
Comment by ruth (March 6, 2008 @ 12:43 pm )
One of my favorite AHM posts… I like the fact that you end posts such as these with more questions than solutions, yet the main solution of glorifying God is at the center. Print this one out and save it for the days when you are discouraged! I have a few other thoughts as well, but I would rather keep them a little more private - will send you a quick email.
Thanks for sharing your heart and mind.
Comment by Kristi (March 6, 2008 @ 1:28 pm )
Not sure why it’s not possible for the Holy Spirit to counsel us to do some form of family planning. Why would reproduction be left only up to happenstance (meaning specifically the Lord’s will and timing)? He counsels and influences us on other things we are to be stewards of, why not this? I understand well that it is ultimately up to Him and no matter how much we plan, it could all be taken away. He’s still our Sovereign God who loves and watches over us. But maybe the Lord will bless our plans because they are what He inspired in the first place if our spirits have been willing and humble. We likely can’t know, but I’d rather pray, trust, be prepared and lose it all anyway, than just blindly race down the path to what might be my destruction. God works miracles, but I think He works in ordinary ways just as much. He made us in His image, which means common sense and intellect–we are merely humans, so those things have to be given to Him for His glory and we need to humbly accept whatever happens from there because we can’t see the fullness of God or His work. But I think it also means they shouldn’t be altogether disregarded when making decisions. You can’t trust them (common sense and intellect…or other people!), but you CAN trust that the Lord will be faithful and that He will be the most
Wonderful Counselor.
Hope my two cents are taken as humbly meant! I’ve always wondered about this, too, and reading the article and comments has been great for me. Excellent words and encouragement!
Comment by Stephanie (March 6, 2008 @ 1:47 pm )
Oh, and when I say “what might be my destruction”, that is NOT a reference to anyone else–not one other single person. It is in reference to ME. Other people may be at a better place than I am to handle more children or God may be working different things out in their life (maybe it’s a matter of trusting God, but that’s between me and Him. I believe I probably will be able to handle more children in a year or two–not without difficulty, but in a better frame of mind, but I haven’t been given any cause to think that He thinks I’m ready for the challenge now. If we get pregnant in spite of what we plan, then obviously His grace will be sufficient for me at that time and He’ll work through my issues in spite of me.)
Okay, now I’m rambling! I am not meaning to offend anyone–this is just how I’ve been led to believe things.
Comment by Stephanie (March 6, 2008 @ 1:57 pm )
I have not studied this issue extensively (unless you count reading through all these comments:)), but I really appreciate how you mentioned the greatest commendment being the trump verse.
I don’t know how this would go over in the QF community, or with QF-in-practice people like yourself, but what about the command to care for orphans and widows? Maybe a family could fill its quiver (to whatever level seems good) through adoption and foster care so that mothers who struggle with difficult pregnancies can have a break, and so children from unfortunate backgrounds can experience a loving home.
Comment by Amy T. (March 6, 2008 @ 2:08 pm )
Ruth, I haven’t quite been where you have been or are, but your story and words have been a great encouragement to me today. I have had friends where you are and have been, who have been suicidal because of mothering issues due to the confusion and chaos and hard work of being a mom (or just their hormones raging) and I found their experience to be a red flag for me since I have always had a melancholy and sensitive personality. Being a mom is amazing, but it has been very, very difficult (I am a military reservist–I was active duty and being a mom has been harder than leading 600 people was. Yes, literally 600.)
Anyway, bless you and all of the moms who have struggled with physical and emotional difficulties. That’s why judgement is such a travesty, especially among Christians.
Okay, really, enough from me!!! I’ve been really, truly blessed by this though and wanted to express it! Back to the lurkers’ dungeon for me…
Comment by Stephanie (March 6, 2008 @ 2:10 pm )
Ruth, your post speaks to some of the questions I have about the “militant” aspect of the QF-movement. Is God “in control” of our childbearing only in terms of how often we get pregnant or does it extend to whether we survive the pregnancy? Without medical intervention many women and babies died during and after child until the last 100 years. If human intervention is being used to help us survive a pregnancy and birth then doesn’t that go beyond “trust in God” about how many children He wants us to have?
Just curious, as I come from a desire for a large family but with a belief that God will put it on mine and my husband’s heart how many and when.
Comment by Colleen (March 6, 2008 @ 2:40 pm )
This is interesting for me because my whole life I have subscribed to the “kids ruin your life, do everything to prevent them” philosophy that is rampant in the culture at large. Since becoming a Christian I changed my mind only very recently. I had never met anyone in my whole life who had more than 3 kids until I went to church (in my 20’s) and still I have never met anyone in person with more than 5 kids. I guess there are some pretty strong movements out there that pressure women to have lots of kids but it’s funny to me because the message of the world is total disdain for children and mockery of women who want to be mothers instead of a character from “Sex in the City”. It seems to me that these “Quiverfull” people are some kind of underground movement or something because I feel like the Christians I know use birth control too much. I personally only learned that some Christians don’t use birth control as much from reading blogs. Are we getting too immersed in the Christian cultures to address issues outside of it? Also, many Christians are no indestinguishable from the culture at large. Hmmm, it’s just interesting.
Comment by Catherine R. (March 6, 2008 @ 3:40 pm )
Here’s the thing. I believe God is Sovereign. I believe He has planned each one of my children’s lives. I do not think that allowing my body and mind to heal between pregnancies can do anything to affect that. I think I am QF but they’d kick me out of the group were I in it….
OTOH, since I am one of those blessed with a long fertility break anyway–I could easily join and pretend. My youngest will be 13 months tomorrow–no sign of a cycle on the horizon. Past experience tells me he will be 18-20 months when things start up again and I’ll be (mostly) more than glad to begin again. But I do not vomit the Entire pregnancy–just the first 14-16 weeks.
Ah well….for my part Amy–you ARE QF in my book…
Comment by Lyn (March 6, 2008 @ 3:52 pm )
So very funny, because my 13 year old son was just saying AGAIN a few minutes ago that he hopes we can have 12 children…but that he wasn’t sure Mom wanted that many….
I assured him that I’d take that many if it were in God’s plan for us, and we’d also see if God brought us some children thru adoption. He knows nothing of this online conversation, of course.
What I am taking from the comment section is this: If I were to invite you all (everyone, but at different times…) over for dinner - some of you would be worried that I would judge you because you have smaller families than I do. And I would be worried that you were judging me and my home and my children - is the house clean enough? Nice enough? Can I afford all of these children? Am I providing for them? Are their diapers dirty? I could never complain to you that I was tired, or had a varicose vein…None of us could be ourselves.
I’m with Amy. Let’s stop judging and maybe stop saying every little thing that we think so loudly and opinionatedly on the topic. (And oh, does that apply to me!!!!! I love having children and love not controlling the spacing of them…and because of this I wish it were so for everyone.) Maybe in this internet world it is so easy to peek into each other’s lives, and maybe it has brought about a familiarity and ease of judgement. We really can’t know the circumstances of each other’s lives. It is so easy for me to feel defensive when people say things against large families, and I think the same is true for those with smaller families.
If I am to influence others to have more children, let it be thru joy and delight that is reflected with those that God has given to me. Let my belief that children are worth it all be LIVED out, day in and day out….not thru ease, nor commandment, nor judgement, but thru thankfulness.
Comment by Holly (March 6, 2008 @ 5:19 pm )
Oh, but, say….if you WERE ever to ask me about children and birth control and were to ask me to pray with you for guidance in this area…I’d be pleased to do that! (Grin)
Comment by Holly (March 6, 2008 @ 5:22 pm )
Cathy (comment 56): yes, God is sovereign.
But does God’s sovereignty excuse us from being careless stewards of our bodies? Consider Ruth’s story (comment 153). Clearly, she is exercising wisdom in preventing further pregnancies. Her choice to do so ought not be judged by others. To my mind, this was the whole point of Amy’s post; and I was agreeing with Amy on this—although I did so in a more (ahem!) heated manner. Forgive my hot-headed response!
Mrs. E (comment 69): I agree. Charity ought to be extended. Thank you for encouraging me to do so.
Comment by Elizabeth (March 6, 2008 @ 5:35 pm )
Oh, one more…Amy. (I’m sitting here grading handwriting papers in my lap…I keep getting distracted.
)
I read a yarn blog that regularly gets 600 or so comments…just about knitted SOCKS! Don’t go gettin’ a big head or something.
(That’s all lighthearted…just ‘cuz you can’t all see my face nor know my personality.)
Comment by Holly (March 6, 2008 @ 5:48 pm )
There are some really great contributions, particularly my granny internet friend Janet (#112), and Holly’s summary (#162). There are many more.
“Ruth” (#153) and “Christina” (#144) in particular bring realness to the table. Women are drowning. Just spend one day reading my email. They’re not saying, “How do you do it?” in the I-don’t-want-boxed-mac-and-cheese-again way. No, they’re wondering how to deal with the anger, the hurt, the loneliness, the frustration of motherhood. We can brush them aside as the exception to the rule or we can see it as a crisis we’ve created with our own hands: no support for them, the church scoffing at pregnancies past two children, and older women abdicating their responsibilities in some instances.
The issue of adoption is complex and a bit of a rabbit trail. Each family has their own calling from God. We can’t just make a flow chart and tell people to follow it. God’s will differs for each family. He has a calling unique to each one of us. Isn’t that awesome? “Laura from KY” adopted 2 boys with Reactive Attachment Disorder, and “Cindy S” adopted 3 children with a 4th on the way from Liberia. Their experiences are vastly different. God bless them both. Learn from them. Ask God what He wants you to do. One family does this, another does that, and together we are the Body of Christ.
I see a difference in motivation but a similarity in technique—zeroing in on certain verses without taking in consideration the whole counsel of God.
Al Mohler had an article on this; can someone link it?
It’s always been my position to not push children on people who do not want them. Some change their minds after the baby is born, but others do not. For the Christian, I’d encourage women to see the Lord’s heart on the matter. How does God feel about little ones and how can we change our own hearts to look like His?
Just want to highlight this observation.
It has been fun participating in this discussion. Thank you for talking with me about it. Please let me know if I overlooked something.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 6, 2008 @ 5:55 pm )
I still have one question.
This has been a helpful discussion for me. But I want to get a clear picture of the QF movement. I thought (and maybe this was an assumption so feel free to correct my thinking) that the QF movement believed and so advocated that it is sin for a couple to practice any kind of birth control, even abstinence or “spilling the seed”, for any reason at all, even illness, “needing a break” etc. Is that completely incorrect?
I do know one family that we are quite close to that would say, when pressed (they do not go around talking about it), that it is always sin for any couple to practice any form of “birth control”. And they are consistent in their belief such that they believe it should even (in a perfect world) be disciplinable by the church. They would also be against any kind of medication to try to get pregnant, if one had some fertility issues, for instance.
I am all for having as many kids as you want to. I love big families and I am quite close to several. But I don’t believe that the Bible condemns all forms of birth control. And I think that while maybe having less birth control overall would be a good thing, I also think it would burden some families with loads God has not required them to bear.
I’ve been surprised more than once of hearing a large family say they space their children with birth control (with ten kids no less!) and many small families who have never used birth control and only have 0-3 children. I generally keep my mouth shut about it in the real world, so I’m glad there are places we can be more open about our struggles with these issues.
Comment by rachel (March 6, 2008 @ 7:39 pm )
I read often here but don’t comment much. It’s great to “listen” to women being so charitable and reasonable about such a hot topic! Holly (#162) says almost what I was going to say. I wonder if the availability of 24/7 news online has made women of our generation feel like we have to hold an opinion on absolutely everything. I feel like it used to be fine to throw up your hands and say “I don’t have a clue about that, but I need Jesus”! Now, b/c it is so easy to find out what others think about things via the internet, we feel more pressure to label ourselves. It feels like a team sport and I don’t have a team. Regardless, I always learn something new on Amy’s blog. I did not know that there was such a thing that was labeled a “movement”. I just realized that Catherine in #160 said the same thing–I know the biblical reference for the quiverfull name, but I had no idea that it was a category that one could put oneself into!
Comment by Emily (March 6, 2008 @ 8:24 pm )
Yes, the official quiverfull position is that all birth control is sin. A quick google search on the term yields a ton of information.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 6, 2008 @ 8:46 pm )
I can’t handle the will of the Lord to have the kids He gives me and my husband…
My body can’t take the birth of another child again or so soon after…
My husband doesn’t want me to have more children…
The sovereignty of God shows up in all of these thoughts. The fiery trial purifies us and the grace of God comes through on every hand. There are miracles about to take place in all of the areas mentioned above and the strength of our God never fails.
I was told not to have kids, because I didn’t have the money. When I had three children 3 and under I thought I’d never live to see the light of day. After one vaginal, one c-section, one attempted and failed VBAC, another c-section, I was happy with the four we had, but God chose otherwise and we had another c-section 2 months ago after another failed VBAC. Now, my husband doesn’t want to risk my health(my uterus was paper thin and ready to rupture) and have any more children. I am just sitting back waiting for God to do His will. Whatever that is…I am open to have more, if God will change the heart of my husband. I will not sabotage the will of my husband to carry out my heart’s desire to have more children. If he says we are going to prevent it (NFP or something that does not destroy life) then we are going to prevent it. I always wanted to have a large family, but certainly don’t feel “capable” of carrying this process of raising my children out too well on my own. I pray for wisdom daily, having grown up in a home where children were literally hated and abused. Having said all that, Amy, as always, I do believe you have it right. God hates the smell of self righteousness in any form. God’s peace overwhelms Christians who are walking in His will…however that takes shape in each family.
Love your blog…keep writing to us, it ministers to so many.
Comment by Deb (March 6, 2008 @ 9:49 pm )
Very interesting post Amy!
I almost got my head chewed off by a friend while discussing the fact that I am pro-life, because she felt I was hypocritical to be pro-life, since hubby and I have taken preventive measures to keep us from having more children. (We have two kidlets; he got fixed.) I was advised by several doctors to not have more children, because I was so ill with my last pregnancy. Not morning sickness - I developed some type of autoimmune problem during the pregnancy, and it is still ongoing. (Though I am MUCH better than I was postpartum… thank you Jesus!)
Did we put more faith in man than in God? That is a question I can’t wait to ask Him. We prayed over our decision - that period of our life was so difficult for my husband that he was adament about us not having more children. He’s the head of our home, so what he says, goes. The doctor’s advice cinched the deal for us - were we being selfish? If we continued having children, our family would suffer considerably. The two children we’ve been blessed with have already paid the price for my declining health - why place a bigger burden on them by adding more children to the mix?
My thought is that a man and a woman (married, of course) should have as many children as they desire. The matter is between them and God; and if we are sinning by closing our wombs, well, didn’t Christ die for all of our sins? That’s why we can pierce our ears, and eat pork, and wear clothing of mixed fabrics. Many might think I’m oversimplifying my thought process, but truly, I fall short of the glory of God so often that I have to trust in the scripture, and know that I am forgiven when I sin. Otherwise, I’d go crazy daily trying to live with the guilt of my human imperfection.
Enjoying the comments - looking forward to seeing what follows!
Comment by Laura (March 6, 2008 @ 10:02 pm )
Thank you Amy for your most recent post and bringing us back to your original post along the lines of grace and love for one another because God give us grace and love.
Comment by Marie (March 6, 2008 @ 11:14 pm )
The dark side of the QF lifestyle that doesn’t get mentioned are the women who are abandoned by their “patriarchs” and left to raise a large family by themselves, usually in poverty. I’m not one of them — I am able to make ends meet, but there are others who haven’t been able to as well as I My point is not to say that people shouldn’t have children or that my brood is not a blessing to me or others. It’s just that we don’t consistently apply the all or nothing attitude to other areas of our life. How many believe that God is sovereign over their possessions yet sill make sure they lock up their vehicles and homes? this lack of faith in God to take this precaution?
Comment by Knox (March 7, 2008 @ 2:06 am )
I agree with someone who already said something lie, “ENOUGH WITH THE LABELS, ALREADY!” I think the only label we should apply to ourselves as identification is that of ‘Christian’. Labels do little more than bring division, rather than unity, or showing love to those who may think differently on the subject.
On another note, I wish that Christians would be as passionate about raising Godly children as they are about how many and how they happened to be conceived (with or without intereventions or planning). I live at a Christian Theological College and am so discouraged by the constant stream of rude, obnoxious, disobedient and defiant children I see, both living here on campus (where their parent/s are training for ministry) and throughout the church at large. I have no problem what so ever with having many children (I have 6 kids under age 10), but raise them according to God’s Word, not man’s philosophy! As Christians, our children shouldn’t be the worst behaved little terrors roaming the neighborhood! This is a reflection of poor parenting (I am not speaking of children with obvious disabilities or under 2’s chucking tantrums… although I still think discipline and loveing nurture start early and it’s not too young to start training your little ones that defiance is not ok. Wake up parents and start parenting the precious arrows God has given you!
Thus endeth the sermon… Off my soapbox now.
Comment by Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 2:18 am )
I agree with someone who already said something lie, “ENOUGH WITH THE LABELS, ALREADY!” I think the only label we should apply to ourselves as identification is that of ‘Christian’. Labels do little more than bring division, rather than unity, or showing love to those who may think differently on the subject.
On another note, I wish that Christians would be as passionate about raising Godly children as they are about how many and how they happened to be conceived (with or without intereventions or planning). I live at a Christian Theological College and am so discouraged by the constant stream of rude, obnoxious, disobedient and defiant children I see, both living here on campus (where their parent/s are training for ministry) and throughout the church at large. I have no problem what so ever with having many children (I have 6 kids under age 10), but raise them according to God’s Word, not man’s philosophy! As Christians, our children shouldn’t be the worst behaved little terrors roaming the neighborhood! This is a reflection of poor parenting (I am not speaking of children with obvious disabilities or under 2’s chucking tantrums… although I still think discipline and loveing nurture start early and it’s not too young to start training your little ones that defiance is not ok. Wake up parents and start parenting the precious arrows God has given you!
Thus endeth the sermon… Off my soapbox now.
Comment by Meg in OZ (March 7, 2008 @ 2:24 am )
thanks for the trump verse.
it’s definitely something i need to put my mind on and dwell on.
Comment by jennifer (March 7, 2008 @ 2:55 am )
Amy, I know you’re trying to wrap up this post, but I wanted to stop in again to try to encourage the mothers here who are really struggling. They’ve been on my mind & heart the last couple of days as I’ve followed the comments.
Whoever you are — whether you call yourself QF or not, and whatever your ultimate take on birth control — if you are a mother deep in the trenches with several little ones close together, HANG IN THERE.
Galatians 6:9. Memorize it. Cling to it. Make it your verse for this marathon season of your life!
For you mothers out there who are desperate but are staying in the battle each day even when you don’t know what else to do and it seems like you’re just trying to survive and you wonder if the life you’re laying down for your family painfully every day is doing any good, don’t give up. Right now you can’t see light at the end of the tunnel and it seems like God doesn’t hear you. He DOES. I don’t know who said it, but a quote I heard years ago has always stayed with me: “When God is silent, He is not still.” You who are feeling like you’ve given all you can give and are this close to breaking down, keep “showing up” in your prayer closet before you begin each morning, giving it all to the Lord. Show up every HOUR, asking for His strength, if necessary.
Amy has written about the MOMYS Digest many times. (It’s now a forum, I believe.) This is an invaluable resource. Many mothers of many who have zero support from relatives, who live in the middle of nowhere and/or who have husbands who aren’t leading as God intended have found much godly wisdom and precious prayer support through this group. The struggles you’re dealing with? Someone else on the MOMYS is going through it too, or has come through it. I hate to suggest one more reason to be on the computer. But if you’re in a situation where you’re trying to lead many young ones and have no human encouragement, CUT OUT other computer things and use that time instead to learn and be edified.
Another thing I pray the Lord will provide for you is some kind of mother’s helper. I used to think I had to pay to bring in a helper, and I did for a few short months until we couldn’t afford it anymore. There are young women out there who would (and should) be happy to come to your house weekly to help you with housecleaning, read to or play with the children, help you make some freezer meals or assist with other needs you have. Don’t worry about what a “mess” your house is or how desperate you look. Swallow that pride and let her in. Let that young girl help you get control of your home again. Remember that you are the Lady of the Home even if you haven’t had a shower in two days and are running to the toilet again with morning sickness. Don’t worry about “If that girl sees me, our children and our house like this, for sure she’ll NEVER want to be a mother!” Don’t worry about her. The Lord will take care of that girl’s heart. There are lots of girls out there with experience with children. But think about the girls with no or only older siblings, or who aren’t around babies very much. Think about how much you can be a blessing to her by giving her that opportunity to learn the basics and allow God to use that to awaken her own maternal instincts — again, even IF your situation seems bleak. Be creative and find a responsible young lady through church (your own or another) or a homeschool organization. Start making calls, even if you can’t ever find the “perfect” moment to make a phone call. I know there will still be some mothers who, no matter how hard they try, will not be able to locate a mother’s helper. Keep seeking the Lord. He knows your needs and will get you through somehow.
I pray you are blessed with a husband who knows how to love you and lead you with real solutions and who sees that he needs to step up to the plate. (I know there are those of you out there who do not have this kind of man and your hearts are breaking as you read this. My heart aches for you, too. KEEP meeting with the Lord and reading your Bible. Again, GALATIANS 6:9. Our God will NOT forsake you!)
Mothers, in addition to the grace of God and the love for each other that we should have wherever we fall on the spectrum of this topic, one thing this post of Amy’s has reminded me of is how much we need each other. We need to pray for each other and the older ladies need to come alongside the youngers. Sometimes trying to find mothers of many who are struggling intensely is easy. Sometimes it’s more like trying to identify someone who is illiterate so they can be given reading lessons. The illiterate person can’t read a sign that says, “Get Your Free Reading Lessons Here!” Likewise, most of the time the mother of many who is desperate can hardly come up for air to get outside of her house. Older women need to seek out the younger mothers.
We MUST remember that most of us are from a generation that was not taught the things we need to know to raise a large family. We are LEARNING *as* we are TEACHING. Our nation has gotten so off course in so many ways that our family infrastructure simply isn’t what it used to be. So we need to be creative. Seek out our mothers now, for their help, even if they didn’t train us before we were married. If that is not an option because of the strain childbearing or other issues has caused, keep seeking an older woman to learn from.
Amy, my thoughts are long, rambling and disjointed. It’s late and I’m sure when I read this in the morning I’ll probably feel like I’ve come across too emotional. I truly hope my long comment doesn’t come across obnoxious or insulting to your very intelligent readers. I just can’t help but think that there are some young mothers out there (some who have commented and perhaps many who have not) who need to just hear “Don’t give up” one more little time.
I was where they are at one point. I still have much ahead and far to go. (I’m not a grandmother yet, haven’t married any children off, haven’t even graduated one from homeschool yet! My eldest is only 15.) But I have begun to see light at the end of the tunnel. Oh, I still feel like I am in survival mode each day (whew, yes!) but it’s a different type of survival. And I’m beginning to see some FRUIT. That child who ricocheted non-stop off the walls and who drove me to tears on my knees day in and day out is absolutely one of the biggest sources of sunshine in my life. He and I are very close and he is a joy to know. It’s that child, who at about age seven, when I sat crying one day because of his hyperactivity, saw my tears and said cheerfully out of the blue (but from the Lord of course), “Hang in there, Mom! Remember Galatians 6:9!”
I need to go to bed. Please forgive any typos and my very inarticulate writing. (I’m no Amy Scott. :P) As I fall asleep, I will be praying for all the ladies in this conversation (all of you, not just the hurting ones), that the Lord will keep you and your families safely in the palm of His hand.
God bless each mother here, as she perseveres for God’s glory.
(Thank you, Amy!)
Much love,
Ruthanne
Comment by Ruthanne (March 7, 2008 @ 3:08 am )
Oh, Amy, as if I haven’t worn out my welcome enough already, I must come back to say that as I lay praying for the ladies of this conversation, the Lord reminded me that some of them haven’t experienced motherhood. I’m so sorry for my utter absentmindedness. Yes, I’ve been paying close attention to their comments too, but since it’s late at night and I’m weary my head is not remembering the whole picture. You ladies who don’t yet have, or have not been able to bear children are dearly loved and are so important to the Body of Christ. You are NOT forgotten and are also lifted up in my prayers tonight.
Humbly,
Ruthanne
Comment by Ruthanne (March 7, 2008 @ 3:32 am )
I just wanted to say that I appreciate every sister in Christ who has shared here, especially Christina (#144) and Ruth (#153). These two women have shown great courage in their vulnerability and their willingness to be so honest with us. It is more than I can say for myself. I’ve been too afraid of “attack” to say that I suffer from depression so severe that I cannot have another child. God blessed us with a wonderful baby boy 8 years ago. God wants me to be healthy to raise the child I already have.
Comment by Caroline (March 7, 2008 @ 8:55 am )
Soooo, can someone tell me where this dark and mysterious QF organization exists, complete with rules and regs and kick-out privaleges? Do they have an underground bunker HQ where they sit at a table and plot new ways to make Christians feel guilty about using birth control?
:p
I’m teasing, btw.
I am sure there are toxic churches who include the QF philosophy in their other teachings but folks are talking like there is an actual organization built around this belief. All I know about is the e-list and the website. And I know for sure and certain that not everyone who is QF also subscribes to the “patriarchal movement” or reads VF stuff, or wears denim jumpers and sings only psalms. They don’t even all homeschool! How about that!
Comment by Margaret (March 7, 2008 @ 9:32 am )
See, this is the problem I have. My children aren’t possessions. They aren’t disease. They aren’t cavities. They aren’t cancer. They aren’t a car crash. They aren’t busses speeding along to run over me if I don’t look both ways. Children cannot be compared to any of these things, or categorized with them as “disaster one should avoid”.
They are eternal souls. And blessings. And it is God who is the author of life, not me.
Comment by Margaret (March 7, 2008 @ 9:36 am )
Amy,
I have been debating whether to jump into this one for a couple of days. Mostly because I see both sides of the issue. I am just not sure I can say what I want to say in a short space.
I think I will do 2 posts, one on each side of the issue.
My husband and I decided not use BC without any sort of teaching on the subject. We had been married 4 years and that was 23 years ago. We ended up having 16 pregnancies and 9 children. 10 years ago my Dr who was also an elder in our pro-family church felt that I shouldn’t have any more children for health reasons and for my husband to obey the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill. We went ahead and had 2 more children and a couple more miscarriages before complying with him. Neither my husband or myself felt that we had too many children, or couldn’t handle them at the time. We were tired, yes, but the children had really turned out to be blessings and God had provided for all our needs.
A few years before this point I felt a crack in the QF argument in my heart when for the first time I met several families of whom I wondered if they really should have so many children. This is about the time I realized that there were rabid QF people out there. I was a longtime Momys member but I finally had to get off the list after my husband’s vas. I just couldn’t take the condemnation. My husband said we were not going to spend the rest of our lives looking back and mourning. It was wise of him. He took full responsibility and this saved me from going down a destructive path of doublemindedness, but the Momys list was not helping.
It has always seemed odd to me how many women bully their husbands into a QF position. This is a major problem and it would be far better for women to submit to their husbands before becoming rabidly QF. I believe there are shepherding issues that should take precedence over the actually issue of BC. Would a good shepherd breed his prize ewe without tenderly caring for her and spacing her lambs?
I also believe that it is so easy to understand female cycles that God must have given us that information for a reason. I stumbled upon my own fertile days quite by accident. Technology may block this information from modern women but God could have hidden this from us but he didn’t. Not exactly theology but a thought.
So I agree that the QF movement sort of left its moorings, forgot the first things. Perhaps, because it takes a certain strength of character to have a large family and not use BC, this was inevitable. I truly believe that God has used the teaching to give families courage in the face of a resistant culture. I just think it would be wise not to put the teaching ahead of the 2 great commandments.
So there is my criticism of QF.
Comment by Cindy (March 7, 2008 @ 9:47 am )
Ruthanne, thank you so much for your comments. I have written Galations 6:9 down on a post-it and I plan on putting it right above my kitchen sink (where I spend A LOT of time…lol). And I also have the hyperactive boy who brings me to tears some day. He’s five right now. And as much as he pushes me to the edge, he’s always the child to bring me back with little comments like, “Mom, I love you the bestest of anyone.”
Thanks so much for taking the time to type that out. It didn’t sound “rambling and disjointed” at all. It spoke right to my heart.
I just want to thank everyone for making this a safe place for women to come to. It’s hard to confess how much you struggle, but Amy’s readers are compassionate, caring women. I appreciate that!
Comment by Christina (March 7, 2008 @ 9:47 am )
On the other hand, I have great concerns for modern young women. I really do. There is a certain whininess that I don’t completely understand. When we first had lots of littles, my husband and I decided that we were not going to complain and act like we needed a break all the time. Once we decided that, our life eased up. We stopped looking for the break that wasn’t coming and we got down to the job at hand. Mindset is everything sometimes. With the Internet SAHMs have far more interaction than women in the old days. I sometimes think this has caused more harm than good.
The problem with using BC is that it is easy to rationalize our own selfish sins and motives. Many families would be blessed by having a couple more children. I mean truly blessed. I hate to see young families missing out on these blessings by fear and even selfishness. We live in a time of extreme affluence and this has warped our thinking and expectations.
There really are social, theological and cultural reasons why having a large family is to be desired. It is good for the children.
I liked what Mark Driscoll had to say for the most part. But I do want to add a few caveats of my own. There are many a SAHM reading this blog who have Mary Pride to thank. Mary is not a mouse. She stood up at a time when no one else was and said what needed to be said. It is silly to judge her in hindsight. If she overstated a few things, so what. Mary was a bulldozer who paved the way and the road would be much harder and many of us would not be on it without her.
I was also a bit stung by his comment about the guy whose car never works. Been there. We should not be judging large families by our misguided ideas about affluence. When did it become a Christian value to go to Starbucks everyday and a sin to have transcendent ideals? I would need to go back to blogging to finish with Mark on this one. Sure there are men who do not provide for their families but it is a little galling that so many Christians live in luxury while judging those who chose a different path, and never forget it is a choice.
I am honestly at the place now where I see that having a large family is not for everyone. I have made it a policy never to judge anyone by how many children they have. I don’t know the stories behind the families. The stories are important and I am not in the business of binding consciences. But I do think that large families are wonderful blessings and full of joy, well worth the hard work they require.
Comment by Cindy (March 7, 2008 @ 10:14 am )
I love this post! I was looking for answers on the issue of when/how to use birth control. So I read Be Fruitful and Multiply by Nancy Campbell and ended up almost more confused. And guilty. And confused. I read parts of it to my husband and he didn’t appreciate a woman (who has no idea of what it’s like to try to support, physically, emotionally, spiritually, a growing family) telling him that it is always wrong to use birth control. I think it is just such a personal thing between each couple and God! I don’t know if we’ll ever come to a “conclusion” but we’ll keep seeking God’s wisdom and I will continue to work at submitting to my husband whose desire is to faithfully care for his family!
Comment by Rachel (March 7, 2008 @ 10:31 am )
Thank you, Margaret (#181)! I couldn’t have said it better myself!! And, what Cindy said! (Minus the Mark Driscoll stuff, only because I am not familiar with it.)
Comment by Sheila (March 7, 2008 @ 10:58 am )
Cindy…Mwahhh! THAT is a big old kiss of agreement! You covered so much that I agree with! You took the time to say it, and did well. I know that you have probably another 10 posts to cover it all….I sure do. And I’d like to…but I’ve already hogged Amy’s blog and don’t know that it would help anything anyway…since you’ve already said the most important things.
It is hard to not feel double-minded on this…because I also strongly see both sides. (And neither side is without flaw.) I argue one side with myself, and then the other, feeling untrue all the while. It is a hard balance to find…but I think you did well.
And please…can’t you find it in your heart to blog again…just on Mark Driscoll? (I know, I know…you’ve decided…)
Comment by Holly (March 7, 2008 @ 11:21 am )
I too think that large families are wonderful, even though I have not been blessed with one. But also agree with many who have said a large family isn’t for everyone.
And when we are mentioning that a couple should be able to provide for the children they bring into this world, most of us are not talking about being able to give them a life of luxury or being able to go to “Starbucks”. I don’t think that’s what Mark meant. I’m talking about basic food, basic clothing, basic shelter, being able to pay for normal medical bills, etc. without planning beforehand that the government help them. I doubt anyone in this blog fall into that category.
May God bless all our families.
Comment by Marie (March 7, 2008 @ 11:43 am )
I agree wholeheartedly!! I get really upset when someone tells me I “just need a break.” No, I don’t. Believe it or not, I like being with my kids. What I need are coping strategies. Someone to help me sort through the chaos of my days. Someone to offer support and remind me to keep muddling through. What I don’t need is a 2 hour break at Starbucks. Because I just come home to the same confusion and chaos. And then, 1 week later, everyone is telling me I need a break again…lol. I have also resolved to not desire getting away all the time. It’s helped a ton. But I will not lie, my mind and body is sometimes recharged by a few quiet hours at the library. But it’s not like I’m bursting at the seams to get away from my littles.
So, so true.
Ok, I guess now I’m a “Blog Hog” LOL!
Comment by Christina (March 7, 2008 @ 11:47 am )
I’m really not the kind of person to shout out “Amen”s, but they just spilled out after reading the first three paragraphs in comment 184! Thanks, Cindy!
Children are a reward. Whatever else they may be, lets not lose sight of that fact!
I loved Ruthanne’s words of encouragement too, as a mom who is still in the thick of it all.
Gotta run, the 2 year old just ripped open all the tea bags…
Comment by Rachel Joy (March 7, 2008 @ 11:51 am )
It’s me, the mom of ten chiming in–again. My comment about God’s sovereignty was with regard to the gift of children. God is sovereign even over our choices (to use birth control or not). How those factors are juxtaposed is anyone’s guess. In all of the rhetoric, don’t forget: a baby isn’t a punishment because you weren’t careful. God’s greater good trumps all human wisdom. Birth control is a personal issue.
As an aside, if you ask me, raising ten kids in a three bedroom, one bath house was probably a bonehead move. Despite that, God blessed. In fact, my kids look back at those times with great affection and joy. Those kids, with whom we were cramped in that house for 18 years, have been the source of hope and joy. I’m sure at times, the neighbors wondered why in the world I was pregnant again. We had the last laugh, though. They love us, each other and the Lord. We don’t have tons of money to leave them, but we are so grateful that they have something far more important than money. They have Jesus–and that’s priceless.
Comment by Cathy (March 7, 2008 @ 12:02 pm )
There is so much to think about here. I appreciate all the encouragement from so many and the honesty about our struggles, too.
I would like to say that I DO think it is a mistake to say, “They shouldn’t be having that many kids…” It sounds dangerously close to, “Those children should have never been born.” I do think sometimes a family needs to take better care of the blessings God has given them or a mother needs to use her time more wisely or could bring more glory to God with her choices, but to say she shouldn’t have those children, I think, is second guessing God’s plans.
That would be like saying a televangelist who is caught with a male prostitute should not be a Christian. Wrong! He is sinning and should be brought to repentance and should be making better choices and maybe needs help with turning his life around.
We can all strive to be better and sacrifice more. Let us look to the scriptures to see examples of laying down our lives for the kingdom of God.
Comment by Myfriendconnie@Smockity Frocks (March 7, 2008 @ 12:15 pm )
Forgive me if I have missed this in all these posts… I didn’t have time to read them ALL. Where is the link to the “Marc Driscoll” sermon so many have commented on? By not having heard his view/comments I am missing something. Thanks
Comment by Kate (March 7, 2008 @ 12:45 pm )
Janet and Ruthanne, we’ve scheduled all three of our babies, and they’ve all turned out ridiculously happy, healthy, and big! But it’s something I’ve taken quite a bit of flack for from others …
As far as family size, well, I would have 30 kids (bio and adopted) if given the opportunity. (And a maid. But that’s a whole ‘nother ballgame, I guess …) My husband? Not so much. So far we’ve agreed that we’re going to talk about trying for #4 in the next few months, and just kind of leave it up to God.
That being said, we’ve been very blessed. We’ve never tried for any of our kids. I got pregnant with my oldest when I was on the Pill, and with the second when I was nursing and on the nursing Pill. And, I’ve had dreamy pregnancies. But I feel much more strongly about obeying God my respectfully submitting to my husband, than trying to conform to someone else’s interpretation of Scripture … which I know how to read, thankyouverymuch.
~Brea
Comment by Brea in Texas (March 7, 2008 @ 1:12 pm )
I’ve considered myself quiverfull for a number of years now, but I’m very uncomfortable with how it is defined by others, like Driscoll for example
I would never have said that you were in sin for not making every effort to have as many kids as possible. I wouldn’t say you were in sin for trying to obey your husband who isn’t quiverfull. I also wouldn’t even say someone using BC for health reasons is necessarily in sin. However, I think many, many times BC is used sinfully. In fact, I’d even go so far to say it is probably sinful or at the very least unwisely used most of the time. People want to use the example of the meteor to justify themselves in their choice when in fact it’s not a meteor at all, just a really loud airplane
BC is too often excused and I believe the quiverfull movement has done a lot of good in that it has caused us to rethink children and fruitfulness from a biblical persepctive rather than cultural. As far as militant quiverfull-ers, I can’t really speak for them. I have no experience with anyone who believes like that and I have serious doubts that most people who are known to be quiverfull actually believe what their nay-sayers think they believe.
What I want to know is this, it seems fairly obvious that most of the people here disagree with the quiverfull position. Why is it that when you say I am wrong you are non-judgemental, but if I say the same thing, I am in sin?
Comment by EmilyG (March 7, 2008 @ 3:03 pm )
I have debated over the past few days on whether or not to post. I am a bit shy and quiet honestly a little afraid of tomato throwing.
I will say upfront that I do have a “ministry” so to speak for QFers. As EmilyG says above….
I too feel this. I will wholeheartedly admit I need to evaluate why I feel this way and not misread the motives of others here, they are all simply personal opinions and convictions and most likely meant in good faith and I will take them in good faith!
Convictions are good and we should be free to express them without feeling that everything someone says is a judgmental or condemning statement against those who disagree. Maybe they are just zealous about what the Lord has done in their life, why do they need a disclaimer for their beliefs??
I have found that not only on this issue but other issues within the Church people seem to have a hard time dealing with those who hold strong convictions contrary to their own. I posted on this yesterday. Here is an excerpt.
CONTINUED:::::A Disclaimer on Conviction
Comment by Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 3:30 pm )
Cindy said:
Now you’re talking!!
Comment by Janet (March 7, 2008 @ 3:43 pm )
I must say that I have been very hesitant over the last couple of days to even comment here. I am a bit shy about this and cautious of flying tomatoes.
I want to say upfront that I do run a “ministry” so to speak for QFers.
I tend to agree with what EmilyG stated above:
Many here have stated their comments on what they believe and most likely it is in a good faith discussion and I am not judging motives but taking them as I HOPE they were intended.
I would hope that the same courtesy was extended to others as well.
Just because someone shares a conviction, even zealously shares what the Lord has done in their life, and that conviction is contrary to someone else’s does not mean that they are doing this to judge and condemn.
Must we put a disclaimer on everything we share?
I wrote a blog post the other day that I would like to share. It applies to not only this issue but many other issues within the Church today.
Here is an excerpt:
To read the rest and offer comments with good faith motives:: A Disclaimer on Conviction
Comment by MamaArcher (March 7, 2008 @ 3:52 pm )
There are so many comments now it is less and less likely anyone is reading this!
I just wanted to say I did watch the Mark Driscoll sermon which can be found here. I was totally turned off by the fact that he spent 3/4 of the talk basically making fun of “no-birth control” Christians. Who is he trying to impress?
Comment by Catherine R. (March 7, 2008 @ 4:00 pm )
Those who like to tell others they are judgmental because they state things definitively perhaps should evaluate their own reasons for feeling judged. Someone who shares what the Lord has done in their life does so out of obedience, love, and zeal not out of desiring to condemn others. (though I will admit there are exceptions but I would venture to say they are indeed exceptions not the rule)
Comment by Reagan (March 7, 2008 @ 4:13 pm )
I just thought it would be fun to be 200.
Comment by Cindy (March 7, 2008 @ 4:13 pm )
It does go both ways, I believe the key is to be secure in your beliefs, and if you are challenged then be willing to evaluate those beliefs. If we are secure in our beliefs we must learn to be okay with the fact that others think we are wrong.
Comment by MamaArcher (March 7, 2008 @ 4:17 pm )
Some here may not agree with everything they espouse, but the people of Vision Forum are some of the godliest and most gracious Christians I have ever known. Please refrain from speaking ill of the Phillipses, their staff and their partners in ministry — many of whom are dear friends of many of Amy’s readers.
In genuine love,
Ruthanne
Comment by Ruthanne (March 7, 2008 @ 4:45 pm )
Dear Amy,
This whole post and thread has hurt me. I thought when God told us to be “fruitful and multiply” he meant just that. Not “multipy” until we felt it was enough or more than enough. Has God ever resended a command later that he gave earlier? Also, from what I gather from other Christians in this thread you all agree that children are a reward or a blessing and am sincerely asking if ya’ll are refusing more children what other blessings or rewards or you also refusing to accept. I ask these questions sincerely without any malice intended. After reading most of the comments here I feel like I have been slapped across the face for not refusing the rewards (children). Honestly if anyone here can point out one command where God changed his mind please show me.
Comment by donna (March 7, 2008 @ 7:41 pm )
I give up.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 7, 2008 @ 8:07 pm )
You are correct, MamaArcher and EmilyG.
According to the Wikipedia definition of quiverfull, the allowance for birth control in extreme circumstances is the minority view, not the majority. (See Majority Doctrine and Minority Doctrine.) From the comments here, it seems that the minority should be the majority or that the minority do not know what the “leaders”/people who write books are saying. (Ack!)
Dear MamaArcher, Please allow me to respond to this. The reason I think my response is meaningful is because I don’t have a dog in the fight. I’m not offended or feeling convicted about my use of birth control (because I don’t use any).
I have been on the quiverfull digest for many many years. I use that as my reference, as I haven’t read your website. I assume the QF digest run by the QF people would be a valid place to make observations and understand positions. Please allow me the following example.
Let’s say that I am the president of the Owe-No-Man-Anything (ONMA) club (referencing my post above). I am debt-free. I fund the Great Commission. I give secretly to quiverfullers (ironically) to fund their adoptions and pay their bills. I obey the verse to “owe no man anything” to a tee.
So good, so far.
But then I go posting my balance sheet on my website. I point out how great this lifestyle is and encourage women to consider living this way. I complain about my in-laws who think I should live it up more. (Ug, they are so annoying; don’t they read the Bible?) I state with passion and conviction regarding my lifestyle to owe no man anything. I post a lot of Bible verses. (I get a new server because my website can’t handle all the Bible verses; there are a ton about money.) I complain that Larry Burkett-type ministries are compromisers. I long to meet other ONMA clubbers, so that we can get together to talk about how to handle the lukewarm Christians in our lives.
I have a potentially GREAT ministry, but you see the snare. Sometimes there is a wrong way to do a right thing. Paul says in I Cor 13 that without love I am a sounding brass and a clanging cymbal. I would be very right in my view about Scripture about being debt-free but I’d be incredibly wrong in my application.
I’d be right but I wouldn’t be wise.
I’ve been very passionate about various things in real life. I blather on about it. I’ve been told that I’m too harsh, too abrasive. My inclination is to restate why I am so right. But the wise person will listen to their “accusers” and see if what they’re saying has any weight, especially if you’re hearing it repeatedly. This has been a hard lesson for me to learn and that’s why I wrote the post. Please don’t be like me.
Emily and MamaArcher, you asked philosophical questions; these are my philosophical answers. I don’t know either of you, so I feel free to say that I’m not taking a personal jab. This is my overall answer to these questions. Please don’t take to heart my words if you truly love women who are not like you and there is no arrogance in your position. I suspect you are the gracious kind of women that I love so much.
Emily asks, “Why is it that when you say I am wrong you are non-judgemental, but if I say the same thing, I am in sin?”
I am saying that the “absolutely no birth control position” isn’t congruent with Scripture. This doesn’t require me to remove a plank to remove a speck. It’s either true or not. A person who disagrees with my position is also without sin.
If a woman judges another for what she does in her bedroom (!) using words like “selfish” and “not trusting God”–back to the post– she puts herself in the position of God who is the only One able to see her heart. Sometimes she would judge rightly and sometimes she would judge wrongly.
Kudos to the quiverfull movement for helping us question our 2.1 children mentality. Women should be sensitive, slower to speak, and careful with their words–not walking on eggshells, but not reckless either. I think people say a whole lot on the internet that they wouldn’t dream of saying in real life.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 7, 2008 @ 8:19 pm )
The blog owner is one of them.
You are always welcome to write here, Cindy. I believe that it would be considered “commenting” or “guest blogging” but definitely not “blogging.” There is only one person I’d do this for and that’s you: Amy’s and Cindy’s Humble Musings.
The above quote is the Cliff Notes version of my post (in case anyone is like me and forgets what it was the post was about….)
Comment by Amy Scott (March 7, 2008 @ 9:00 pm )
Did I miss something? (????) All comments are out of moderation.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 7, 2008 @ 9:23 pm )
Someone said recently, “Being politically correct has replaced being Biblically correct.” I fear that statement applies to this post and the comments.
Comment by Anonymous (March 7, 2008 @ 10:15 pm )
I, for one, appreciate this post. For people to sit back and speak with authority that women aren’t trusting God and their faith is small and they have NO clue about the woman’s heart before God is very wrong.
I think the finance analogy is a GREAT one.
Comment by Rebecca (March 7, 2008 @ 10:56 pm )
Now I’m hurt, Amy. Why not “Amy’s Humble and Cathy’s Prideful Musings”? At least I placed your name first.
Geez, guys, come on. It’s really OK to disagree. If you want to replenish the earth singlehandedly or not at all, OK.
There is nothing wrong with discourse which includes intellectual honesty. Amy is right (I’m sure that makes you feel so validated, Amy). There is nothing in Scripture that speaks to birth control. The Bible says to replenish the earth, but doesn’t put a number on it. If that isn’t biblically correct, please correct me. I have ten kids, but that doesn’t mean that I have never practiced birth control and that doesn’t mean that those who do are in sin.
For the life of me, I couldn’t find where anyone dissed Vision Forum. I looked pretty carefully, but may have missed it.
Comment by Cathy (March 7, 2008 @ 11:29 pm )
Amy, when I wrote earlier about “you” saying things were sin, etc. I was not speaking directly to you, my apologies if that was conveyed. Rather, I’m trying to expose the hypocrisy that is happening here by many. There are people running in the streets crying out, “Judgmental!!” while not even realizing they are themselves judging. No one in my church is quiverfull and I made it a point not to ever talk to anyone about it unless directly asked. Yet I have been ignored, and gossiped about for supposedly being judgmental about it. Yes, I know this for a fact. Somehow, just by living out my beliefs, they feel accused. Thankfully, this has not been the case with those that have actually spent time with me. It really is those who don’t know me or what I really believe that are unwielding and cruel in their opinions of me, just as I feel Driscoll was over those in the quiverfull movement. I merely point this out because these people truly seem so blind to the hurt they cause. It is not a sin to question every area of our lives in efforts to bring them into accord with God’s Word. It isn’t even sinful to say to someone, “Hey, I’ve really studied this in regard to Scripture and I think this is wrong.” We do deal with one another in Grace knowing that God has not brought us all to the same place at the same time.
Comment by EmilyG (March 8, 2008 @ 12:05 am )
Mark Driscoll mentioned Vision Forum in his sermon, perhaps she was referring to that?
Comment by Jeana (March 8, 2008 @ 12:07 am )
Then we would have to call Cindy:
Cindy The Humble
and that would be fitting!
Comment by Janet (March 8, 2008 @ 12:07 am )
LOVED the post! Loved it so much that I added you to my personal blog faves. Thank you for writing such beautiful truth.
Blessings,
Autumn
doineedabiggerplate.blogspot.com
Comment by Autumn (March 8, 2008 @ 12:12 am )
God Bless you Amy. You have the heart and mind of a truly humble Christian.
This whole discussion has been on my mind alot lately. I have to admit it’s a topic I hadn’t given much thought to because I don’t practice birth control (I’m infertile)but I don’t think BC is wrong. It has made me think alot though and changed some of my mind on opinions or ingnorances, especially about the “pill”.
The whole discussion boils down to whether or not as a Christian a person believes Gen. 1:28 is a command or a blessing. I fall more into the blessing category, but I know some of your readers prefere the command category.
I found a really interesting article from Christianity Today on the topic.
“Much could be said in response, but only one comment is essential: Genesis 1:28 is not a commandment, but a blessing. It does not refer to what humans must do to please God, but to what God does for and through humankind. The text says, “God blessed them, and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply’” (RSV). Fertility is not a command but a blessing that God gives to his creatures, to animals as well as humans (Gen. 1:22). The filling of the Earth is a gift of God’s wisdom and shows forth his glory as Creator (Ps. 104:24, 31; Isa. 6:3).”
Another take is that physically increasing the earth’s population is talked about in the old testament but the new testament of Christians talks about being fruitful spiritually and increasing disciples of Christ.
The article goes to talk about a couple using BC.
“But they do not usurp God’s providence or sovereignty. If God can use even evil to accomplish good (Gen. 45:5-8), surely he can use human actions that seek to serve God with the freedom he has given us. God’s sovereignty works in and through human actions, and, if necessary, in spite of them.
To suggest that birth control is evil or perverse because it undermines God’s sovereignty is to underestimate God’s sovereignty and reject our responsibility to serve him wisely. Of course human choices ought to be made in the realm of freedom set within the limits of God’s law. But where there is no law, our choices are free (Gal. 5)—provided they are wise and serve God.”
Perhaps this is another example of what Paul says about some Christians feel comfortable “eating meat” and others do not. Neither is sinning.
This is probably reiteration of all that’s been said. But I really like your take. Neither side has grounds to judge or say that another is sinning. Only if we are not following an absolute command of “Love one another.”
Comment by Marie (March 8, 2008 @ 12:22 am )
Amy,
Thank you for this post. I so appreciate YOU and your graciousness. I even told all two of my readers to come read your blog because of that.
I’ve been reading through the comments each day. Debating whether or not to comment myself.
This is an area my hubby and I have discussed many a time. But that’s not what I wanted to say.
I wanted to give the ladies who have infertility or barrenness a big ol’ virtual blog hug.
My husband and I had stopped preventing seven years prior to the Lord opening my womb. Though those seven years were not marked with the pain many commonly experience (during part of that time period the Lord granted me the desire of my heart to foster and adopt - and prior to that much needed prep time of going through trials as a couple for the difficult years ahead of loving some of those children) I understand how it can be painful to hear someone say that a woman with a closed womb is “cursed”. The Lord opens and closes a woman’s womb as He pleases. That is what I rested on in the midst of the seven years we waited. To this day (though I have now birthed two children) it’s strikes to my very heart when I hear someone infer that I was cursed during those barren years. I was not cursed. God had other plans for me and husband.
In Christ’s love,
Mary Beth
Comment by Mary Beth (March 8, 2008 @ 1:38 am )
It was Margaret’s comment #180 that motivated my comment. The word “toxic” made me wince, then when her second paragraph appeared to cast the ideas of patriarchy and “VF” (Vision Forum) in a negative light it set off an alarm for me.
I’ll be the first to admit that I am very sensitive to these kind of remarks because of the horrendous, wicked gossip Doug and Beall endured this past year which hurt so many people (including me). They say if it’s too hot in the kitchen one should get out of it and, frankly, that’s what I had to do for a while (leave the blog world and retreat a bit).
I know there will always be folks who don’t appreciate VF the way I do and I must be able to handle that. Between the Mark Driscoll sermon (which I wasn’t actually able to listen to because I don’t have the time and couldn’t figure out a way to fast forward it through the fluff to get to his main points) and Margaret’s comment, I just felt like this conversation could head in a direction of VF bashing and I’m never able to sit by silently when that happens.
I’m sorry, ladies. I hope you’ll forgive me for jumping the gun. This was a case of me coming out from under my rock after time away from the fray and having to deal with the negativity while wounds on behalf of my friends are still healing. I’m human and as a Mercy person I feel things very intensely. I hope you’ll be patient with me.
I stand with my precious friends at Vision Forum but I also want to say I harbor no ill will toward Margaret of comment #180. Margaret, perhaps the ministry of VF will be a blessing to you someday (and I mean that with all gentleness and sincerity).
Thanks for bearing with me!
(And back to Amy’s regularly scheduled programming.) : )
~ Ruthanne
Comment by Ruthanne (March 8, 2008 @ 1:58 am )
Now y’all know why I married this lady.
Happy Birthday Amy!
Comment by Greg (March 8, 2008 @ 7:27 am )
By the way ladies, let me tell ya about God’s sovereignity…I had my three children bumper-to-bumper. My oldest was two and a half when his youngest sister was born. We weren’t, *ahem* TRYING for any of them.
My youngest? I was fully breastfeeding, we were using protection, and my husband was OUT OF TOWN ALL BUT TWO DAYS that month. Heh.
Now they are all grown and I am glad I had them that way…just saying God really, really IS sovereign.
Comment by connie (March 8, 2008 @ 7:42 am )
A last thing to say: It was because of discussions like this that my husband and I finally understood (we finally saw the light) that children are a blessing and not to be avoided.
That said, I will have my fith c/sec this year and do not know how many more my body will be able to handle. We take it one at a time.
BUT Thank you all for the contributions. It is good to understand that every child is a blessing (thank you QF people) but that my children will need a mother that is alive in the end (the other end of QF)
Comment by Marita (March 8, 2008 @ 8:42 am )
Whenever I come across a discussion such as this, I always like to refer ladies to these two letters:
Private, Private, Private
and
Private, One More Time
Comment by Paulla (March 8, 2008 @ 9:17 am )
Here is a thought. What about Jesus Mother , Mary? She practiced the ultimate contraception–abstinance, she was a virgin. In other words, if God wanted you to have that child. If it was His plan for your family, life etc, you would get pregnant and have that child whether you were using contracetion or not.no contracetion is 100% and nothing is too difficult for our God.
Comment by Anonymous (March 8, 2008 @ 9:33 am )
I just skimmed these comments, but I happened to catch Greg’s…Happy Birthday, Amy! Great post, too. I try not to have this discussion with too many people, but I do tend to ask the intentionally-childless if they can give me any biblical examples of when babies are not considered a blessing.
Comment by Lisa (March 8, 2008 @ 10:02 am )
There were a LOT of comments, so forgive me for not reading every last one of them and instead skimming them if you will.
Amy - thank you. I’m a 25 year old wife/mother with a one year old and husband in school. What you posted, I needed to hear - that two people can do two different things and not think the other one is sinning.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Comment by Shannon (March 8, 2008 @ 10:25 am )
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, AMY! Yes, we all see why Greg married you
You go Greg!
Amy, I can’t express enough how thankful I am to you for hosting this discussion. You say with wisdom the things I can’t. I especially appreciate your comment # 206
Please don’t give up.
I’m honestly surprised that some supporters of the FQ movement feel so judged. I can’t imagine anyone who truly loves the Lord not rejoicing with you in your desire to please Him with your children. But we all desire it. Has anyone here bashed large families? Really that is not the point. So many women who do not this view (but desire to please God equally) have been made to feel less in Christ.
And you have to ask yourself: Do you believe them less?
I’d just like to reiterate…We always damage the Body of Christ when we place others under our convictions. If God gives you the conviction, live it out quietly, in humility and love. But please, don’t put a yoke on your sister that Christ never intended her to have. Encourage her in the things that are clearly stated and encourage her to keep a pure heart. If we love our sisters, we really will esteem them better, not just the object of our charity b/c they don’t clearly see what we see.
Sorry for the sermon. But continuing….
We really all are dumb sheep. We go around bossing each other like foolish children. None of us should feel that we have the right to have authority over each other or say what the Shepherd likes best (picking our favorite scriptures). Shouldn’t we treat each other with great honor? I think one day we’ll see that so clearly (how we should have been giving each other preference and honor) and we will truly grieve that we were myopic in the lesser things.
Comment by Kat (March 8, 2008 @ 10:52 am )
Happy Birthday Amy! Crazy to me how many of your family birthdays and mine are together. My oldest daughter is 6/10/04, next daughter 2/15/06 and I’m 3/7. Fun! My husband is a physicist too. (that is greg’s official branch of science, yes?)
This was a fantastic post. Thank you for taking the time to write and being willing to open up your blog to this discussion. It has been extremely encouraging to me.
Comment by Tiffany (March 8, 2008 @ 11:47 am )
Ruthanne, I had no intention of calling VF toxic. Truly not. I meant individual churches, I didn’t mean for anyone to connect “toxic” with Vision Forum!
I have benefitted from VF but because I understand that some have been hurt (reasonably or not) and because I saw that QF was being associated with patriarchy and VF, I thought it necessary to point out that there are even some QF folks who don’t like “patriarchy” or VF.
I wasn’t including myself. I’m married to a patriarch and wouldn’t have it any other way. And I love flipping through the VF catalog and dreaming of what we will buy when we have lots of money.
Comment by Margaret (March 8, 2008 @ 12:10 pm )
Amy, you always rise to the occasion and handle yourself with grace. That’s why you have so many readers.
I did want to mention that your sernario about being in debt to any man was good! And sadly, the wrong way to handle things happens too often (I include myself). Sometimes, the following scene you mentioned is a little different though. Your balance sheet isn’t following you around the grocery store in a long train or proudly displayed in your pew at church.
Of all convictions people may hold, this one is probably the most apparent (I understand that this does not stand on all fours for those who would love to have many children and cannot). I am verbally and quietly judged often (only to be told later that they indeed did judge me…did they have to tell me?) for the size of my family without my ever saying a word about birth control. I’m not a nazi about it even if they did ask. Certainly there are times when it is necessary to use BC just as there are times where a woman might have to work or put her children in public school or shave her head (just examples, ladies). I don’t think these are ideal situations and they should be the exceptions. Sometimes I wonder if God brings these into the lives of some just to show his mercy extends past our legalistic and sanitary view of life. It doesn’t excuse selfish thinking and sinful desires as some have tried to promote but it does help us, while striving to take the most excellent way, to have grace for those who are on different paths. I think if we were careful to make sure every area of our own lives, even the small ones, line up with Scripture to the best of our knowledge, that would keep us quite busy. Too busy to be snobby, but wise enough to have an answer to anyone who asks why we do what we do.
Comment by Ginny (March 8, 2008 @ 12:35 pm )
Amy,
Very encouraging blog. I know I should read it more often but seems like things are always busy. I totally agree with your view on kids. I think as Christians we must always remember that even though we may not share someone else’s view we have no right to be discouraging for their convictions unless it’s explicitly against scripture. I am a mom of 4 boys 7 and under and am due with our first girl in a few months. AS someone who has been very blessed when it comes to getting pregnant I have a hard time hearing other people criticize using any type of birth control. We are often asked if we’re catholic but we just laugh and say…actually..we’re VERY careful not to get pregnant till we feel we’re ready. I am only 28 and will have had 5 kids. You figure I could end up with 12 by the time I’m forty at this rate. (Not that I wouldn’t LOVE 12 kids, but I also don’t feel called to have that many.) When my husband only has to give me “that” look and I end up pregnant,HA! I feel I have a responsibility to take precautions…not b/c I don’t love kids but b/c I want to be the absolute best mom I can be and feel I am able to meet the demands of my husband first, then my children. Children are truly a blessing from the Lord and I always think it’s neat to see very large families. But there is much grace in this area as well as many others. We must seek to keep unity in the body by encouraging one another and not turning our personal opinions, especially in gray areas, into absolute truth for everyone! Anyway, I know I’m preaching to the choir since you basically said the same thing. I think the biggest thing is ALWAYS being excited about each pregnancy whether expected or not. THey all are truly miracles and blessings from God.
Comment by Anonymous (March 8, 2008 @ 12:42 pm )
I have been judged by a QF family for not having a reversal because I am trusting in God for His healing. I may have wavered for a bit in my faith, and that led to a tubal, but coming back to trusting God completely in everything has shown me that He doesn’t need my help but that I need His. He reminded me that our very first child was concieved through His will (through at least 4 forms of birth control I might add) and not ours. My faith is alone in Him and what He can do through me. I may never have another child but I have my heart right with God and that is what He has asked of me. Thank you for this post!
Comment by Anonymous (March 8, 2008 @ 4:36 pm )
One thought I’ve had on this issue. If we are to put our faith completely in God and trust him for the timing and number of our children, are we to do the same when it comes to their health?
In other words, if I believe that I should not use any chemical or medical means to prevent the conception of children, does it follow that I should use no chemical or medical means to help them heal when they get sick. Do I trust the Lord to heal them or not, as He sees fit?
Historically, in the absence of human intervention, people experience high birth rates and high death rates. This seems to be the “natural” order of things. If we continue to experience high birth rates because we don’t prevent them, but we intervene and prevent high death rates, what happens to the balance of nature?
I’m not sure what I think of it all. I just have a lot of questions.
Comment by rebecca (March 8, 2008 @ 7:07 pm )
Wow. I just did an odd experiment. I read the comments first (ok, I didn’t read *all* the comments…but I did read most of them) *before* I read Amy’s post. After reading the comments, and preparing to read the actual blog (how weird is that?)I was all prepared to have my QF convictions trampled on, and to come away offended. Um…well…I’m *not* offended?!? Gotta say I pretty much agree w/ everything you wrote, Amy. Maybe I misunderstood. ?? But, I’m thinking you’re saying something like to remember to love folks, regardless of what they believe about being QF? Is that close? (scratches head) Now, I’m pretty staunchly QF, but I’ve been through enough to know it’s not something to enter into w/o “counting the cost.” When you get up in years (ahem), pregnancy isn’t as easy as it would have been, say…(ahem) 20 years ago? My last pg was *tough*…twins birth…one had a birth defect and died at just a few hours old. There were times in my pg w/ the babies that I thought I just couldn’t physically go on. But, the Lord upheld me through it. My babies were born 2 days before their due date. I was never on bedrest. B.P. was good. But, I was absolutely miserable. There were times I thought I was literally suffocating from the babies pushing up on my diaphragm. My first pg, 14 years ago, was so easy, compared to this last one.
Would I do it again? Yup. In a heartbeat. But, I can definitely understand the possible conflict for a lady anticipating another pregnancy.
I believe the Bible is clear that children are blessings. I believe we should welcome any life the Lord grants us. But, I can certainly extend grace to others who are undoubtedly facing their own hardships and fears when contemplating these issues. It’s just not a cut and dried issue.
So, um…what’d I miss?
Comment by Mrs. H (March 8, 2008 @ 7:35 pm )
Amy,
Wow, lots of comments on this one. I really enjoyed the post, and appreciate your non judgemental stance. I think you have the readership you do because of that. I just have two kids and will not homeschool them - so maybe not a lot in common with you in that respect - but what keeps me coming back here every day (!) is the encouragement I get from you. The underlying thing I get from your blog is to do everything I do (changing diapers, making meals, middle-of-the-night feedings) to the glory of God.
Comment by Anonymous (March 8, 2008 @ 11:16 pm )
Rebecca, do you categorize children with disease? I’m sure you don’t if you think about it, but that is what your question does.
We live in a fallen world. Disease and illness is a result of that. We do trust God for healing, but there is even Biblical principal for using what’s available to help (take a little wine for your stomach!) Children, however, are not a result of our sinful world, and they are a blessing, and they are eternal souls. There is no Biblical principal or example for actively preventing them, and we trust God, who is the author and creator of life to know when and how often to do his creative work.
I’m really surprised that so many Christians don’t see a difference between treating disease and preventing the conception of children.
Comment by Margaret (March 9, 2008 @ 6:15 am )
On my deathbed, I think the one thing I will regret is that I did not have more children.
We have two beautiful girls here, one baby in heaven, and one son in heaven, whom we had for a month on earth.
After Christopher died, I didn’t think I could emotionally handle another pregnancy, so we made sure that wouldn’t happen.
Now, eleven years down the road, I would love another baby, but we can’t.
Instead, as a family we travel to Africa to work at an orphanage. My husband and I speak around the country at marriage conferences. I write books and homeschool, all things that would be much more difficult with more children. So we are trying to do as much as we can with the situation we have.
But I can’t help but feeling that any other children we were given would have been a blessing, and somehow I missed out on that blessing. But God is bigger than our regrets, and He can turn my present into something beautiful, which He continually does.
Visit me at my new blog, To Love, Honor and Vacuum!
Comment by Sheila Gregoire (March 9, 2008 @ 8:53 am )
Hi Margaret,
I don’t see children as a disease. We have 5 of our own, some through birth and some through adoption, and they are a blessing indeed.
No, my question is more along the lines of trusting God with all things. With the conception of our children and with the healing and health of our children.
I’d be interested in hearing what my sisters in Christ might think about the subject.
Comment by rebecca (March 9, 2008 @ 10:01 am )
i don’t think people should take things to extremes…like base all on one verse like you said. God expects us to have our own minds and make our own decisions and then come to him and ask if it is the right choice for us. i don’t believe people should use birth control just because they need to wait until they buy a boat first or get a better promotion first. but some people mentally cannot handle a lot of children or maybe their bodies cannot handle the pregnancies and there is never any room for people to judge them for things they may not know. it’s definitely a personal issue and either way you go with birth control or trusting in God (which we for sure use the former) you have to live with YOUR choice and not worry about what other people think, because ya know what - they’re just people.
Comment by lisa (lost pezhead) (March 9, 2008 @ 10:26 am )
Rebecca I agree with you and understand what you mean. To trust God with all things…what does that mean?? Are you praying for answers and really pondering through scriptures….God gave us free will to be able to use our minds and to search for ourselves. Do we not use the advancement of medicine (which let’s face it…doing a heart transplant….do you think man just thought of that, or do you think it was divinely inspired)? Shouldn’t we trust in God after we find the answer for ourselves (which answer could be differnt for other people) and then ask in faith if it is right or wrong and then know with assuridy what our course of action should be then in accordance with God’s will?
Comment by lisa (lost pezhead) (March 9, 2008 @ 10:39 am )
Thank you for this. Beautifully written.
Comment by dcrmom (March 9, 2008 @ 1:09 pm )
John Piper has a brand new entry on his website about birth control. Here is the link:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/AskPastorJohn/ByDate/2646_Is_it_wrong_to_use_birth_control/
Comment by Karen (March 9, 2008 @ 1:15 pm )
Thanks for that link, Karen. I generally agree with his position, with a caveat that contraception-free families ought to be more normative in the Church.
Mrs. H, Comment threads do seem to take on a life of their own. Thanks for doing that experiment. I do think there is some confusion about what I said and what people think I said. I wrote the post very quickly (20 minutes?). I think I’d be more precise next time, but I stand by the original post.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 9, 2008 @ 2:30 pm )
I’d like to see more contraceptive free families in the MINISTRY! They are surprisingly rare.
Comment by Holly (March 9, 2008 @ 3:34 pm )
Wow, lots to think about. I didn’t read all the comments so I’m not sure if this was brought up.
As someone who is slowly recovering from severe PPD I cannot see God’s hand in enlarging our family anymore than the 3 boys we were given. (perhaps through adoption) Isn’t there some truth to using wisdom in your situation? Of course there isn’t any Biblical example of limiting children because there wasn’t any way to do that, except for abstaining. (which I agree is not right in a married relationship, except in some situations which are outlined in the NT)
PPD is not something I wish on my worst enemy. It was a living horror; not something I wish to go through again.
Comment by Crystal (March 9, 2008 @ 5:47 pm )
Oh my gracious goodness, Amy! You have opened a veritable empty bank vault and it’s now filling up with treasure! Although I’m late to the comment party, this post and its comments have provided a garden of wisdom, agony, triumph and depression!
I’m a grandma now, but back in the day was an infertility case. Finally had a full-term stillbirth, which broke my heart over and over again. Then had six little ones in seven years.
The fifth of these latter six was, is, multiply disabled, CP, retardation, a shunted hydrocephalic. We were told to institutionalize him when he was two years old. He if 43 years old now, and had lived his entire life at home with loving parents. He’s had over 50 surgical shunt revisions but otherwise is healthy and a contributing member of society. He is artistic and “paints” lovely pastel pictures.
Our oldest son was killed 18 years ago. Another sadness which occasionally breaks me down. You never, never get over the death of a child.
In my declining years (except I’m not really ready to decline), I see my life from an entirely different perspective. I was given God’s grace to do what He and I both wanted to do–have lots of kids and try to raise them well. In retrospect, I’ve been lavishly blessed with what I wanted even though I could not articulate those wants. Who knows why! It was neither merit nor need. Life sometimes is that cosmic chuckle.
We have eight grandchildren, precious beyond telling. One of two 11 year old 6th grade G-daughters told me last night, as I was babysitting her and her sister, about the girls in her class who are “having sex with their boyfriends.” She is not having sex, because she does not have a boyfriend and is “not one of the popular girls.” I am blessed to be her loving confidant, trustworthy and available for her always. Her parents, too, cherish our grandma-granddaughter relationship.
And I was reminded that one of my own 7th grade classmates, back in antiquity, became pregnant. Nothing is new.
Moms under siege, do as someone suggested, find an older woman and ask her to help you. She will be flattered that you asked, and you will be given a brief time-out to accomplish the necessary or even chat with someone who has been there and done that.
We can’t see the endgame. We have only the Now. Live as much as possible in that Now. All you moms and dads, struggling with your seeming neverending burdens, are in my daily prayers. May the Holy Spirit alight upon you and give you all a brief reprieval of joy.
Comment by The G-Ma (March 9, 2008 @ 5:54 pm )
I’m here via RocksInMyDryer. Wow this was an excellent post, very thoughtful and well put. I’ve struggled with this very issue because I know people who have made remarks about people who don’t have more than one or two kids are not trusting God. Your last paragraph hit the proverbial nail on the head.
Comment by Terri (March 9, 2008 @ 8:19 pm )
Well, it’s not like you need another comment here, but I have to take a moment and let you know as an infertile woman how deeply the QF movement has hurt me personally. I thank you for this post which would only sound like “sour grapes” from me. We have one miracle baby girl, and she will probably be an only child, unless we adopt a sibling for her.
I have been so hurt to hear from people that they are praying the Lord will “really bless us” now that he’s opened my womb once. It is as if my one treasured lamb is considered nothing to them, and only 6 or more will be a sign of God’s blessing in our lives.
It cheapens the life of our child, but I feel that it also cheapens the lives of their own children, as they are seemingly never content with the blessings they already have, and are continually in pursuit of the next one they don’t.
Comment by Coralie (March 9, 2008 @ 8:48 pm )
Thanks for this grace-filled post. I think there is a point in which we begin to put God in a box and our minds limit His abilities. I believe God has the power to bless you with children when and how he chooses. Here is my personal experience: My husband and I choose to use birth control. Ten months in to our marriage, while I was on the pill, I became pregnant with our first child. A couple of years later as we were trying for our 2nd and last baby, we conceived and got twins. Neither pregnancy was what we expected or planned - even though we used birth control. God is bigger and more powerful than birth control. He proved that to me twice. Now that we have our three beautiful, healthy children, I know deep down in my soul that children are a blessing from God. I also know that God has had our family planned since before he formed me in my mother’s womb.
Have a great week!
Comment by jenni at talking hairdryer (March 9, 2008 @ 9:07 pm )
We were, and our family size was one of the arguments used against us and we were forced to resign.
We ran a local children’s ministry. See the irony?
I’ve heard of many families in ministry being discouraged because they are often told they are a burden to their supporters.
Comment by Christina (March 9, 2008 @ 10:44 pm )
We are.
Comment by MamaArcher (March 9, 2008 @ 10:59 pm )
We were in the ministry, too.
Comment by Holly (March 9, 2008 @ 11:15 pm )
I’ve been reading this thread over the past few days with great interest. Amy, your post was spot-on and truly one of the best I’ve read on this subject.
We’ve been homeschooling for 15 years and in the early years, we were heavily influenced by QF proponents. We looked to the scriptures and declared we would do nothing to hinder the Lord blessing us with more children (we had two at the time). I don’t want to take up a lot of space here, because it’s a long story–but the bottom line is: we still have two children. We gave control to the Lord and He chose for us to have two children. And as other women have stated here, I have story after story of people wrongly assuming we did something “permanent” because we “only” had two children. That was a long time ago (our youngest is 17), but when I think about it even now, I remember the hurt. It was hard enough dealing with secondary infertility and the health issues that often accompany it, let alone the judgement and condemnation from a select group of brothers and sisters in Christ.
I can tell you our views are somewhat different now–we still believe that children are a blessing from the Lord and as Christians, we should welcome them and not view them as hindrances. However, we do believe there are some circumstances where b/c is warranted, such as when it comes to the health and safety of the mother and/or the children she already has. I say this because just 6 weeks after Andrea Yates killed her 5 children, one of my dearest friends–a very godly, homeschooling mother of 6, tried to do the very same thing. I spent the next year very close to the situation and because of it, I did extensive research on post-partum depression with psychosis. After dealing with this–from caring for my friend’s children during her numerous hospital stays, holding her hand day after day as she pleaded with God to take her life, to watching the emotional turmoil that went on (and is still going on)in this family–I can say without a doubt it would have been very irresponsible for this husband and wife to have more children.
It’s very easy to say, “I would never…” to these not so black and white issues. I know. I used to be someone who judged others as not quite measuring up if they didn’t agree with my position. It wasn’t until going through these circumstances that I realized God can and does work in peoples lives differently.
Comment by mishel (March 10, 2008 @ 1:04 am )
Some interesting ideas. The forced abortions in China were very common during the late 1970s and early 80s, but really aren’t an issue now. The fact that the wait for adoption from China has lengthened so much is indicative of how the ‘one child policy’ is changing.
One thing no one has seemed to mention is that the Lord also asked us to be stewards of the earth and at the moment the world is over-populated. Families in the first world, such as yourselves (we live in Africa and our footprint is pretty large too) have a huge ecological footprint and large families more so. My husband and I made the decision to have one child. If we add to our family (our daughter is only a few months old) it will be through adoption. I believe that there are millions of children out there who already exist and need homes, how can I call myself a Christian and ignore them?
Comment by Ruth (March 10, 2008 @ 4:06 am )
I read this post to my husband, who is working on a PhD in Old Testament, as we are currently working through our ideas on these things. We’ve had 3 boys close together and are considering using some form of birth control and perhaps adopting in several years.
When I asked him what he thought of the command to be fruitful and multiply he reminded me how important it is to remember the context of a verse. Perhaps that command to Adam and Eve (when they were the only people on the earth) was not necessarily intended for us to read in the way we read it now (now that man clearly has dominion over the earth). I had a desire (I believe God-given) to have my own children and now think that perhaps our resources might best be used to care for orphans through adoption. Like I said, we have not finished working through this…
Comment by Mary (March 10, 2008 @ 4:46 am )
Amy,
Thank you for opening up this can of worms, so to speak. I enjoyed your comments and those of some of your readers. I used to think everything was black and white when you are a Christian, but I no longer judge with this standard. Being pregnant with my 5th has made me struggle a lot over this issue. I can’t say that this is the last but I can’t say “bring it on” either. It is just good to know that I am not alone in my quest to seek God’s will in childbearing. I want to honor God, but right now I feel like such a bad parent to the ones I have that I can’t imagine adding any more. Satan will try to get me to despair and point me to my bad parenting as a reason not to have any more - yet the Bible says that “My God shall supply all your needs according to His riches in Glory”. It is hard to get your mind around that one when you feel like you are losing it physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Yet His promises are true.
So thank you for giving me something to pray about and be encouraged by. We must be on the right path, or else it would be easier than this, wouldn’t it? May the Lord continue to encourage and strengthen YOU!
Love,
Karen
Comment by Karen (March 10, 2008 @ 7:39 am )
Oh…just to quickly clarify why I made the ministry comment…I was referring to the Piper link where he seemed to give a dispensation to not have children to ministry couples. I have heard of people who are in extremely dangerous situations not having children in order to spread the Gospel. I can’t say what God has spoken to them…
But in general, I have watched ministry couples my entire life. MANY have said to me that they limit their family because of being in the ministry. Many mission organizations frown upon their couples having more than four children, because they are asking people to support them, and the costs become “burdensome.”
Having been in full time ministry (with seven children, pregnant with #8) I can vouch and say that it is difficult, particularly when you don’t know anyone else in real life who walks a similar path.
Sorry for the rabbit trail (again) Amy. Piper is great…I just don’t know about this particular point.
Comment by Holly (March 10, 2008 @ 8:13 am )
My heart goes out to Coralie from post 247 and Mishel from post 252. I understand (completely) where they’re coming from. I too was deeply hurt by the judgement and condemnation from sisters in Christ because I was a mother of *only* one child. I didn’t bother defending myself - that my Stage 4 endometriosis rendered me infertile and that my precious daughter was a medical miracle thanks to our Lord first, surgeries and a precious Christian infertility specialist. It wouldn’t have mattered, because to these women, I seemingly was the lowest of the low. A couple of them later learned why we *only* had one child and offered their condolences because our daughter will miss out on so much. sigh. Well, I have a precious daughter who is now a lovely young woman. I need no condolences because she’s a GIFT from my Lord. She loves Jesus, serves Him and blesses her parents oh so much. I celebrate my daughter because our Lord gave her to us. I’m not *missing out* on anything…nor is she. We appreciate what God has given us and had no reason to think God left us out of a better plan, or dissed us for some other silly reason.
Comment by Sherry (March 10, 2008 @ 9:40 am )
You can call yourself a Christian because/if you were bought with a price: the precious blood of Jesus.
Comment by Cindy (March 10, 2008 @ 9:45 am )
Amy:
A friend sent me the link to this post - I’ve really enjoyed the discussion.
I have had 9 pregnancies in 11 years, and eight children. They are ALL a blessing. I’d do it over, again, in an instant. I became pregnant with all of them (except the first and last) while nursing.
I think there is great wisdom in seeking the Lord in this matter, and also submitting to our own husbands. We women (I speak for myself) tend to get wrapped up in the issues emotionally. My admonition from scripture is to be a helper to my husband to submit to him, and to ask HIM when I have a question about what God would have us do.
I am blessed to have an understanding husband, who sees all the “have as many children as you can” thinking as foolishness. If you aren’t training them up in the Lord, what is the point?
There are so many black and whites in scripture - if we worked diligently obeying those would we have time to wonder what else to do?
Thank you for your post. There is persecution on both sides - for having a large family, and for saying we might be done (because of serious health risks). Your words were very encouraging.
Comment by Mrs. Troop (March 10, 2008 @ 10:21 am )
Re: comment #253, Ruth
While it is commendable of you to welcome adopted children into your home, it troubles me that many are limiting their family size because of fear of overpopulation - the idea of overpopulation is being used to justify abortion and support the global warming theory. Large families are considered eco-criminals by hypocritical proponents of this highly disputable notion. Yes, we should be good stewards of the earth - but our abuse, not our existence, is the problem. Before you make such a permanent decision I strongly urge you to check out some of the opposing viewpoints - earnestly look for truth; don’t allow yourself to be brainwashed by the press!
Comment by CR (March 10, 2008 @ 10:24 am )
Ruth, as someone who has adopted from China I can tell you that forced abortions are still an issue, even if not to the extent that it was 20 years ago. The lengthening adoption timeline is more indicative of backalley ultrasound machines and sex selection abortions.
Margaret, no one is calling children a disease. What some of us do question is why is faith in God ONLY limited to the conception of children but not to health and survival of both mother and children. It seems counterintuitive to say that God will provide as many children as he wants you to have and then go to a doctor to make it happen when your body can’t do it properly.
CR, I think Ruth is speaking more to the children all ready without parents that need homes rather than overpopulation in general. God commands us to take care of the widows and orphans. If we allow our families and the desire for more “blessings” from God to keep us from following this command from God than I think that something is amiss.
I think it is also wise to remember that the “be fruitful and multiply” verse is old testament. The new testament applies the “multiply” concept to spiritual babies. To such an extent that certain Christian sects refused physical babies in place of ONLY spiritual babies. Now I am hearing of some who are forsaking spiritual babies in place of physical, believing that their children will be the witness for them as adults. I think there needs to be a balance in there somewhere. And also allowing each person to their calling from God.
Comment by Colleen (March 10, 2008 @ 10:57 am )
I do believe it is Biblical to say that God wants the average married, fertile woman to bear children.
I don’t believe this is only an old Testament concept… What about verses like 1 Tim 2:15? I’m not sure in what sense a women is “saved through childbearing” but apparently it’s still considered a good thing. And in Titus 2:4-5 young women are encouraged to love their children (yes, *plural*, ladies).
There are many legitimate reasons why a married women may end up with just 1 or 2 children (or none). But as a national average…! Is that really all the average woman can “handle”, even in this age of epidurals, dishwashers, washing machines, and inexpensive second hand clothing?!
I suspect that too many of us have bought into the whole, “I deserve more breaks” mindset that the world is feeding us. And maybe we’re not training our children in the way they should go, and the fruit of that is what’s overwhelming us.
I agreed with what Amy had to say in her post. But I do wonder if some of us are a little too quick to take this nonjudgmental approach as a pat on the back, another affirmation that our use of birth control is okay. We were created to be able to bear children, don’t forget, and because of sin & the curse, it is difficult for every one of us. Our husbands carry their burden of the curse day after day for years, and some of us women are ready to call it quits after 8 bad months!
I agree that forming judgments based on what we guess to people’s motives is a bad idea… but my experience is that we are not usually left guessing why a family is the size that it is - many people these days freely vocalize their family plans.
In Genesis 38:9,10, the Lord slew Onan because he spilled his seed on the ground rather than raise up an heir for his brother. Clearly, his motives were wrong. (Whether the act itself also displeased the Lord we do not know for sure.)
Let’s be sure our motives are right!
When all is said and done, there’s nothing here on earth that will last…. except souls.
(re: Ruth’s comment in #253, If we choose not to have children in order to reduce our ecological footprint, what does it profit us? We may gain the world, but it’ll pass away eventually anyways, while he who does the will of God will live forever. 1 John 2 :15-17)
Comment by Rachel Joy (March 10, 2008 @ 12:01 pm )
Holly, you are right about mission organizations. While we were in Ethiopia, we met a couple who was later strongly reprimanded for having their fourth child. As that made the rounds of the mission grapevine, other missionaries were near gleeful about the reprimand, saying awful things about the irresponsibility of this poor couple.
Comment by Margaret (March 10, 2008 @ 12:15 pm )
in addition to my last response…
There are a number of women in scripture who had one child…one. Were they in sin? Or, were they accepting what the Lord allowed? How do those in the QF stand concerning these one-child mothers?
Comment by Sherry (March 10, 2008 @ 12:23 pm )
Dear Ruth #253, I used to be active in the Christian environmental movement, but be very careful about assuming large families cause a strain on the environment!!!! We only by second hand because of the choice we have made to have more than one child. All the large families I know can’t afford to spend extravagantly or buy lots of useless stuff, a lot grow their own food and are very environmental with out even knowing it! I used to be pro- Zero population growth even going to hear Paul Elrich speak, because I was so afraid of the doom and gloom of overpopulation. The large family often buys bulk and goes out less so please don’t assume that is going to hasten the end of the world. You are so right that we need to be concerned and educated as to the global impact of our life style choices because there is so much suffering due to greed. I now have 4 bios and one being adopted from China and I no longer have any green guilt. We love the Lord and wait on Him!!!!!
Comment by Sara Gibson (March 10, 2008 @ 12:49 pm )
[...] you haven’t seen this, Amy’s Humble Musings has an excellent post with Thoughts on contraception and the quiverfull movement. I appreciate her balanced, reasonable, and gracious line of thinking on this [...]
Pingback by Monday odds and ends « Stray Thoughts (March 10, 2008 @ 1:05 pm )
What a lovely and lively discussion! God has really been teaching me so much over the years about not judging others. It is something, when I look back over my Christian walk, to see how I used to, when God convicted me of something, think that I should go about convicting others of it as well. I hate to think of the feelings I hurt, or the people I might have turned away from Christ. I am amazed by how much I have judged people over the years…because they were or seemed different from me and thus must be wrong. What planks I have had in my eyes.
How lovely it is to see here ladies with big families, small families, hopefully awaiting families, biological families, adoptive families, some believing in birth control (at least in some forms of it), some believing in not using birth control, and on and on…but all seeming to desire to live to please Christ wherever they may be in their walk and in whatever way they understand the Scripture.
I pray that each and everyone might be blessed and might continually grow into a richer relationship with our Lord and Savior. I pray for any hurts that any sisters might feel from others comments and that they might be able to forgive their sisters, or for other comments IRL that they might hear or even feel, and that they would be able to forgive those who might be in a different place in their walk with Christ or who might feel passionately led in a different direction.
May God give strength to all for all the tasks and circumstances that they are in. I have learned so much from all of you. Grace and peace to all of you in Christ Jesus.
Happy Birthday (Belated) Amy and thank you for facilitating this discussion. I can definitely see why your husband married you! This mother has learned much and has still so much to learn.
Comment by Shelley (March 10, 2008 @ 1:10 pm )
This is off-topic, but as to forced abortions in China, it is still a problem. In addition to several articles I’ve read lately, we also heard first-hand from our guide/interpreter while we were in China adopting our daughter in March 2007.
His wife was several months pregnant with their 2nd child. Their first is a boy. She works for the government as a chemist in their Import/Export department. She had tried to keep the pregnancy a secret, but it leaked out. She got a knock on their apartment door one afternoon, and was escorted to go and receive her abortion. She was threatened with exorbitant fines and loss of her job if she didn’t comply.
We enjoy such privileges as U.S. citizens. I can’t tell you how grateful we felt when we touched down on American soil again, and our new daughter became an American citizen. She has a special need which would have kept her from ever being able to participate fully in Chinese society. She is truly a blessing from God!
Comment by rebecca (March 10, 2008 @ 1:14 pm )
Happy Birthday, Amy! Our birthdays are close. Mine is today! I love you!!!
Comment by Elizabeth (March 10, 2008 @ 1:29 pm )
[...] 10, 2008 . . . then check out this post at Amy’s Humble Musings. She has almost 300 comments, and I’m sure more to [...]
Pingback by If You’re Up For a Hot Button Discussion . . . « Life More Abundantly (March 10, 2008 @ 1:38 pm )
Such a topic, aye? I’ll tell you what what my husband and I believe. We did not believe in birth control. In a way, we still do not. When we married, we did. Our first born was five months old when we stopped using any form of birth control. We were willing to surrender my womb and our lives to bringing into the world, as many children as the Lord saw fit.
However, when our third child was born, it was under EXTREME circumstances. I nearly died, he nearly died. I was sick for months following his delivery. The Lord knew I would not listen to one or even two doctors telling me not to have any more children. So He sent me eight doctors. Yes, eight doctors telling me that it would be a very wise decision not to take a chance on delivering any more babies. On top of the other physical problems Harrison (my son) and I had, during the pregnancy I had a stroke and it permanately damaged my eyes. So not only were seven OBs and one Family doctor telling me I shouldn’t have more children, but my eye specialist advised against it also, saying that IF I were to have another stroke like the one I had when I was pregnant, it would probably finish my eyes for good.
My heart cried when I looked at the empty chairs around my table that would never be filled with our children. I went through a bit of depression over it. But I also knew that the Lord was finished with me giving birth. He gave my husband and I perfect peace about that. I had to pray and pray HARD for the Lord to take away those desires of more children and you know what? About a year and a half later, he did! I can honestly say that I feel we are in God’s perfect will concerning this decision. My husband took care of things in that area and we told the Lord that if He saw fit for us to have more chilren, he would give them to us, surgery or not.
We look forward to having a slew of grandchildren one day, providing that is the Lord’s will. This is a personal decision between a husband and wife and God. I do not believe in holding back from God what is His just because finances aren’t where you’d like them to be. Or because you want to be married a few years first. Or because a baby would interfere in “our careers” right now. But I do believe that physical issues can play a part and the Lord will use those to speak to the heart of a couple. He will tell them what to do and if they are trusting the Lord and listening to HIM, they will know what to do, they will do it, and peace will follow.
~Kristi
Comment by ~Kristi (March 10, 2008 @ 1:46 pm )
Perfect post. I don’t even have a great comment to leave b/c your post said it all! Thank you!
Comment by oh amanda (March 10, 2008 @ 3:57 pm )
Again I am wondering where the “rules list” is that to be QF one must have 9 or 12 children? I am pretty sure any writings by QF people are clear that it is not about the numbers.
Even if one believes contraception is a sin, it is possible to never use birth control and have one or even no children. It is not the number that is the problem, but the heart attitude or intent. Sarah was barren but begged for children, as was Hannah, as was Rebecca. Somehow I think their situations and their attitutes were slightly different from the woman who says “Nope. No kids. Don’t want em.”
I have three. I am QF. We have friends who had one baby after 14 years of barrenness. They were QF.
QF, as I understand it, is not about a certain number of children being most righteous or blessed, but believing that each and every child is a blessing to be welcomed, and believing that the creation and timing of children is under God’s realm of authority, not ours.
I am sad that smaller families have been hurt by some in the QF category, but I think it is a mistake to put down the concept because of the imperfections of individuals. My husband and I have been judged by someone who was convinced we weren’t really “trusting God” because we didn’t have a baby every year like they did. They were totally missing the point, but that doesn’t mean the point was invalid.
Comment by Margaret (March 10, 2008 @ 7:24 pm )
Hi all,
). I have one biological child and 2 stepchildren–I so identify with the idea of being QF in spirit. I would love more children–spent most of the last 11 years daydreaming about it. However, my husband, for his own reasons and concerns over my health has decided that we should not have more. I trust that my husband is seeking God’s will and that if it’s God’s will that I will have more children, my husband will change his mind. I also appreciated the comment about the use of BC being under God’s sovereign control. The pill can’t stop God ;-). Anyway–I have been blessed by comments on both sides of the issue and am confident enough in the Lord’s leading of my family to be able to listen to all sides without feeling judged. Thanks ladies for the terrific “conversation”. This is the most “grown up” time I get until Sunday. Blessings!
Just want to say how much I have enjoyed this post and most of the comments. It is really refreshing to hear different views and no condemnation. After all, we may be convinced that we are right but really the only one we answer to is God (and husbands
Comment by Kelli C. (March 10, 2008 @ 7:47 pm )
When I said in an earlier comment that the qf list would likely kick me out, I was not trying to knock any qf’ers, please forgive me. I was on the list and like Amy, I struggle with HG. A thing about HG is that it can wreak havoc with your mind. It has with several pregnancies made me quite loopy and depressed. While in this state of mind with pg #5, I posted a “I can’t do this anymore” cry for help on the list. I think I was asking if there was justification for having some intentional spacing–time to heal. Only one man showed me Christ’s love.
Now it has turned out that God doesn’t even mean for me to be in the baby a year club (I’m not that fertile!)–something I’d love were it not for the HG. I do not believe I am courageous enough to face HG every year. This is why I like this post so much–we need to love each other despite our weaknesses. Not one of us is perfect.
Comment by Lyn (March 10, 2008 @ 8:30 pm )
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!
Comment by mel (March 10, 2008 @ 9:34 pm )
I think most of us here who believe BC is permissable have the same viewpoint as QF, that every child is a blessing to be welcomed. The main difference is whether God allows us the ability to try and control timing and number of children within our personal circumstances.
Many have said that God opens and closes the womb. I agree to an extent but not that it specifically applies to every woman. God is ultimately in control, but I don’t believe he micro-manages us.
Happy Belated Birthday Amy!
Comment by Marie (March 10, 2008 @ 10:33 pm )
This was an interesting subject. Like many I’m still working on it. I appreciate the verses that were shared. I will enjoy researching them. I’m a spanish interpreter, with a minor in greek. I have extensive training in the area of interprting and translation. Some things to consider, and a reminder to those who already know.
1. The english version of the Holy Scriptures is a translated document. Adam, Moses, David, Paul, ect. did not speak english. Thus, context, context, context, are of upmost importance. When translating the translator must decide who the audience is, the original intent of the author, and what the intent of the author was. It is incredible what goes into a translation. Thats another topic, but relevant.
2. Every book, every chapter, every verse, are mine, but every command, blessing, promise… were not intended for me. I have no intention taking the nazerite vow, or trying to fullfill Abraham’s part of the Abrahamic Covenant. The person who doesn’t fullfill the whole law, and still breaks it in one point is guilty of all. We are not under the law but under grace. Just because God told Adam and Noah to be fruitful and multiply does not mean that command was intended for me.
3 God has dealt differently with different group throughout the ages. (I took a whole class on Dispensationalism in college.) It greatly effects how you read and understand the Bible. OT gives us knowledge of our incredible God. NT tells us how the body of christ (not israel)is to please him.
Now you’re wondering how does this apply to this subject. Read, Read, Read your bible. Keep on reading it. Then read it some more. God will use his quick and powerful, living word to work in and through you. It takes a life time to become conformed to his image. He uses our good and bad decisions to teach us. Our bad decesion have consequences(we may wander in the wilderness for 40 years). God can and does suspend judgement(the brass snake). We are to work with our own hands. Dr. Telloyan said “Draw a circle around your feet(and the rest of your family). Worry only about what’s on the inside of it. How to please God, and not worry about what everyone else is doing.”
He was speaking to a mixed group. What Paula wrote in Private, Private,Private. About Wives submitting to their own husbands is pertinant. Our husbands are our decision makers. Food for thought. Again I challenge you. Keep reading your Bibles. Your opinions will chance as you grow. I Corinthians 13 doesn’t change. Everyone has room to grow in that area. I haven’t met a person yet who’s mastered that chapter completely yet. Keep up the good work ladies. In the end he has promised to complete us. It just takes a lifetime, to get there.
Comment by Vickie (March 10, 2008 @ 11:08 pm )
Yes, I was talking about the children already existing in the world needing homes (number 253). I have to say that one of the most hurtful things ever said to me when I was waiting and desperately longing for a child, but unable to have one was that I “was not fulfilling God’s will and command because I had no children”. That comment was made to me by a teenager I was teaching (she was from an LDS family and was number 11 of 12). After she left the room I put my head on my desk and cried.
I don’t believe that God is asking us to have unlimited families. I think it’s about cherishing each and every child that comes our way as being precious to him and to us.
Comment by Ruth (March 11, 2008 @ 9:43 am )
I feel saddened and appalled that people actually make comments like that, Ruth (#279 - the LDS girl).
And, I do think it’s a shame that many QF-ers think it’s about a number. I know most of us don’t.
I am so enjoying the discussion. Stacy McDonald has a wonderful follow-up post at her blog http://www.yoursacredcalling.blogspot.com. (She links to this post).
Happy Belated Birthday, Amy!
Comment by Sheila (March 11, 2008 @ 12:08 pm )
Beautifully and graciously worded. Thank you for writing this. And, happy belated birthday to your son! March 4th is my mother’s birthday, as well
~Bethany
Comment by Mrs. Bethany Hudson (March 11, 2008 @ 2:07 pm )
I am sitting here sobbing reading your blog. What a breath of fresh air. I would love to be quiverfull. Dh and are both one of six children. We have 5 children (oldest is seven) here and several in heaven. We adore kids. And yet, I have problems. I have very
bad hypertension. I have had four preemies (all very healthy, thank God!). I have had kidney stones with every pregnancy, requiring surgery several times. And my last three births were c/s. So, what do we do? We ecologically breastfeed and my last four kids are all 18 months apart.
The world, and many of my Christian friends and family, tells me I am nuts because I haven’t had a tubal ligation or sent my dh “to the vet”. But I sincerely desire more children and believe that children are indeed a blessing to be desired, not avoided.
But my QF friends tell me that it is sinful to even think of using bc for a season. That if I truly trusted God I would be okay with facing major surgery every year and a half. That my uterus is indeed a ziplock bag that can be opened over and over without consequence. I am thrilled to be going to an Above Rubies retreat next month, yet am somewhat apprehensive. What if they find out we are using bc right now? Will I be chastised?
We are saving to adopt internationally, but it will be some time before we are able.
I find it hard to find the balance between proclaiming the anti-world sentiment that God loves kids and wants to bless us with them on one hand and judging others or ourselves on the other. God help us find the right way to say this.
Comment by Tamara (March 11, 2008 @ 5:37 pm )
I forgot to mention this but feel it is so important I am going to post again.
If you are struggling with infertility and consume soy products on a regular basis you should stop. Soy is very bad for women. I have seen this proven over and over. Please read up on the dangers of soy to the reproductive system.
Comment by Anonymous (March 11, 2008 @ 6:12 pm )
I am leaving this to see if it takes.I have commented twice and neither have published..I am stumped.
Comment by Diane (March 11, 2008 @ 7:00 pm )
Can I ask a quick question? My appologies if this has been addressed and I missed it.
I am including a description of my current take on things just so you know where I am coming from. So, to summarize, it seems to me that by God’s design men and women are active and conscious participants in procreation and as such cannot act as though the decision to procreate were intended to be made by God alone. I am anxious to here the QF response! And I reiterate, this is a sincere inquiry, meant only to shed light on things I do not understand. I’m not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I just want to know what YOU think, in case you understand something I don’t!
What is the QF answer to the fact that (as I see it) we are, in effect, unable just to “leave procreation up to God” because it was He who made men and women conscious and deliberate co-creators with Him. In other words, at the very least, it is up to us whether we have intercourse. QF or not, God doesn’t plant children in wombs unbidden; we have to participate in the act. That being the case, the closest we could come to “leaving it up to Him” (again, this is only my perception) would be to have intercourse every single day of every single fertile cycle. I certainly don’t think that QF folks advocate this. Instead, I choose to recognize and take seriously the responsibility God has placed in the hands of my husband and myself: to prayerfully align ourselves with His will as we cooperate with Him in the creation of new life, using knowledge gained from NFP to space our children. (That’s another thing: now that I am conscious of my fertility cycle and its signs, it is difficult or impossible for me to re-blind myself, as it were. Even when I am not taking my temps, the other signs (which I can’t help but notice) give me a pretty good idea of whether I’m in the fertile time of my cycle. So, our decision of when to have intercourse is necessarily made in light of the liklihood that we might conceive. Knowledge of my fertility, it seems, places a fair chunk of the choice and responsibility in our hands.) I am writing this out of a sincere desire to understand the QF movement better, because I find it intriguing and conmpelling and because I do not want to write it off without seriously considering its arguments. I am open to being convinced!
Comment by graceandjoy (March 11, 2008 @ 7:35 pm )
graceandjoy, I don’t see intimacy as “control” of fertility. We are commanded not to refuse each other. I don’t know how it works for other, but my husband is pretty much clueless about when fertility happens
(and happy to keep it that way) and I don’t refuse him unless I am genuinely sick (like, barfing over the side of the bed or something). I like knowing what my cycle’s doing to help date a pregnancy, but since we are not basing intimacy on that, how could that even come close to controlling fertility?
Yes we are “participants” in the creation of new life, but we can “participate” as much as we like
but there will not be new life unless God decides there will be. And as others have so astutely pointed out, we can try our best to avoid new life and he does indeed sometimes override that. 
Comment by Margaret (March 11, 2008 @ 8:38 pm )
Margaret, what if the husband specifically asks for the wife’s cycle in order to avoid asking during that period of time?
Comment by Colleen (March 11, 2008 @ 9:39 pm )
graceandjoy, very good question. I have wondered the same thing myself. My understanding of QF is that NFP is not acceptable, so anyone who is QF would not have taken the NFP courses or done the extensive study to truly understand fertility. So, they would not be active participants in procreation as you stated because they don’t know for certain when they are fertile.
I am not QF, but have practiced NFP for child-spacing for 19 years now and loved it, particularly after one of our 4 children was born with severe disabilities and turned our lives upside down for a season.
I put the link to John Piper in this discussion because it rang true for me when he pointed out that Genesis 1:28 was before the Fall. After the Fall, in households like mine, the effects of disease made things almost overwhelming. I remember days when I woke up in the morning and was just thankful that everyone was still breathing. I think not using any BC is great, but I don’t judge those who, for unselfish reasons, need to put some space between their kids.
Great post, Amy, and great comment thread. How neat for Christian women to be able to “reason together.”
Comment by Karen (March 11, 2008 @ 9:42 pm )
In response to Tamara (comment #282) - you mentioned that you are afraid others will find out that you and your hubby are using birth control. How on earth would they know? That is a private matter between you, your husband, and God - in the privacy of your bedroom. Nobody should be privy to that information, other than perhaps your doctor.
I’m slightly appalled at what many of the women here are willing to share about the private areas of their lives, their husbands lives, and their bedrooms - on the internet. It is the unmitigated sharing of these extremely personal and private details (on a very public site) that draw the hurtful and often unhelpful comments from other women - most of whom aren’t meaning to be hurtful or unhelpful.
Once again, I’d like to steer this group to Laine’s letters and these two very helpful posts:
Private, Private, Private
and
Private, One More Time
Please read both. God bless you all.
Comment by Paulla (March 11, 2008 @ 11:10 pm )
Another question on the Sovereignty of God: Are there ANY children created which God did not WANT created? We can talk about preventing them, and whether that falls under our stewardship or dominion…and we should say that people shouldn’t have kids they can’t take care of or “afford,” but do we really think the tenth child in a family was random, that because the mom and dad were QF they had this child…but it wasn’t really in God’s plan? Doesn’t God foreknow each of us, in our mother’s wombs?
Sometimes, I think that all of this is mindboggling, and that is why I really would rather leave it up to God. I certainly don’t have it all figured out! (And while I’m strongly on the side of life and children - I feel compassion for those with difficult pregnancies and struggles with infertility.)
Regarding NFP - I have friends who have such LONG fertility spans each month - and then they have “patchy” fertility as well if they are nursing. If they were to abstain as zealously as they are supposed to according to NFP, they would be abstaining A LOT. NFP has always felt “controlling” to me, with all of the charting and temp taking and abstention….that’s not a criticism, it’s just that I think *I* would feel I was trying to be controlling if I were using it.
Comment by Holly (March 11, 2008 @ 11:37 pm )
Hi, Amy. I just wanted to leave a comment in case you’re waiting to hit 300 before you post again.
This has been such an interesting discussion to watch…thanks!
Comment by Lisa (March 12, 2008 @ 7:31 am )
Holly, you’re right. True NFP can be a real hassle. Terminology has changed in 20 years, and I think, after a google search, what we’ve really been using is called Fertility Awareness Method now.
I still think using no birth control is closer to God’s original design, and wonder now if there are blessings I’ve missed out on.
Comment by Karen (March 12, 2008 @ 8:15 am )
Um…then he couldn’t say he was QF, could he?
I believe that’s called NFP.
Comment by Margaret (March 12, 2008 @ 8:34 am )
Clarifying that last comment, “QF” by the definition being used here, no control of conception whatsoever.
Just so no one jumps down my throat.
Comment by Margaret (March 12, 2008 @ 8:37 am )
Just enjoying the comments ladies! Trust your husband, trust God, Keep some things private!!
Grateful for the 4 blessings here and the 8 blessings in heaven.
Comment by k (March 12, 2008 @ 8:47 am )
Holly, as other women have pointed out you can try and prevent and God can override it or you can try and have children and God can override that also. Ultimately God IS in control. However, why does that necessarily mean that we are not able to work WITH Him in fertility. God calls us to work with Him in all areas of our life, why not this? And why ONLY fertility and not the life and health of mother and baby. How can we tell God that we implicitly trust him with our fertility but not in keeping us safe through them and our babies alive? Until recently all women through history have had to do this.
We in 21st century America have been blessed beyond measure with doctors, medical knowledge, and food that allows us to not only get pregnant (or not) but survive the pregnancies, our babies survive them and our children most often survive childhood. These are things that are not happening the world over and have only happened in the last 150 years. Rather than being thankful individually for these blessing we use them to beat others over the head with them for their choices on BC.
Comment by Colleen (March 12, 2008 @ 10:21 am )
In post 273, Margaret shared the following remarks as a response to my post:
***I am sad that smaller families have been hurt by some in the QF category, but I think it is a mistake to put down the concept because of the imperfections of individuals. ***
Just to clarify, I was in **no way** putting down the concept of QF. I shared a personal hurt from a few ladies in the QF movement.
I never practiced NFP, nor did I ever use contraception. Our quiver *is* full (with one child) simply because God deemed it so.
Two of my dearest friends just had their 8th and 9th respectively…what joy! That joy is no different for a QF of one. :o)
Comment by Sherry (March 12, 2008 @ 10:29 am )
I just wanted to tell you that I made a post at my blog about this. I’m telling you because I made a link back to your post here, and quoted you also. Just know that I agree with you and that I did not say any thing bad about you.
Thank you.
Comment by Theresa (March 12, 2008 @ 10:45 am )
Colleen, I don’t believe that I have beaten anyone over the head with their decision to use birth control! I believe in grace and personal decision made thru much prayer in this area. Is it alright for me to say what *I* feel regarding NFP?
Comment by Holly (March 12, 2008 @ 12:10 pm )
Oooo. Let me clarify that last point of mine. It should say, “Is it alright for me to speak personally and say what *I* feel regarding the use of NFP within my own marriage?” I wasn’t speaking of NFP for everyone else.
Y’all should make your own decisions.
Comment by Holly (March 12, 2008 @ 12:35 pm )
As usual, I am long on thoughts but short on time.
I just wanted to be comment #300 since this is my blog and all.
Heh.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 12, 2008 @ 12:36 pm )
ARGH!! HOLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Comment by Amy Scott (March 12, 2008 @ 12:36 pm )
Ha!
Comment by Holly (March 12, 2008 @ 1:19 pm )
While I appreciate the fact that you address this issue a blind cover all can’t be taken here. My husband and I have a 7 month old that has Cystic Fibrosis. CF is a genetic disease and we pass it on. There is a high probability that all the kids we have will have this disease. CF involves long hospital stays and a large bank account. Unfortunately more children is out for us for the next few years. We are not just learning how to be parents but we are learning how to administer iv antibiotics, give pills to a 7 month old, and do chest physical therapy on him. If I was to have another child the one I have now would suffer physically.
We will probably have one more, but that is several years away. We might adopt more but taking care of our one sick baby will take most of our time. In the first 6 months of his life he was hospitalized 4 times for a total of a month and a week. I would’ve had to leave the other children at home.
I just wanted to remind you that some of us have our quiver full with only one child an have to prevent the conception of other children.
Thanks.
Comment by Courtnie (March 12, 2008 @ 1:35 pm )
Well, I wasn’t going to comment again but I do need to gloat that I tried to be comment 200 and was reduced to 201 and Amy ended up at 301. See ya at 400, Amy!
Comment by Cindy (March 12, 2008 @ 2:26 pm )
Holly, I am sorry. The second part of my comments were not directly in regards to you. You had made it perfectly clear that you believe your feelings are yours and yours alone. I am sorry if I made you feel like I thought you “beat others over the head”. I was commenting more in regards to how Tamara and others were worried in general about the more militant of the QF movement.
Comment by Colleen (March 12, 2008 @ 3:21 pm )
I’m sorry, too Colleen!
That was my “I can’t believe we have colds AGAIN,” super-bad headachy self feeling defensive…
Comment by Holly (March 12, 2008 @ 3:36 pm )
Amy, Thank you for such a wonderful oration! KODOS! This is such a ‘touchy’ subject and one that it so wonderful to see put forth with such grace and balance.
Like Margaret in post 273 our family has been verbally attacked for having 22-32 months inbetween our blessings. Breastfeing has caused a lull in my ‘fertility’ as I don’t seem to ovulate until I am weaning my babies. I see no reason as some have suggested that I wean in ourder to GET pregnant! hahaha! This is so bizarre to me. I know that not all QF families would think or say such things, but have meet more than a few who do and would.
I dispise labels…but to most would be considered QF-ish….I agree with Amy in many ways, differ in some too, but I’ll get into that some other time Amy!
This brings me to an issue that I would like to present….In our home, I nurse babykins for oh, around 20-24 months or so…around 18-22 months I get my cycles back and then haven’t conceived until they are regular…this has been 2-8 months….so that is where I am with that. No BC….I am in good health and mostly sane although Bethany (20 mon.) is working on the later! Back to the point…I got married at 17 and have had babies around every 2.5 years or so. If I did the QF ‘math’ that means I’ll have like, a gazillion children if I have them unitl I can’t when I go thru menopause….does this reasoning seem faulty to any of you? It does me…I have thus far been blessed,in God’s timing, with 4 beautiful babes…8, 6,4, and 20 months. BUT….since I am TRUSTING GOD and NOT ME…there is NO telling how many I shall have. This idea that I hear so frequently is very disturbing to me that …I had #1 at x age and have babies every y years, I will have z children….I have seen this idealology go so far as to try to MAKE themselved GET pregnant…how is this math and this ‘positive’ manipulation trusting God?
I am encouraging my sisters to accept the children the HAVE as blessings, as well as the chldren the may receive as blessings…Lets us as sisters lift one another up in prayer that we raise the chldren GOD has given us, in the fear and admonition of the Lord…let us nuture and love them. And when/if HE blesses our wombs again do the same for that precious little gift.
Comment by Ashley (March 13, 2008 @ 1:39 am )
Ashley, I agree with you. I used to “do the math”. Me personally, I get excited about the thought of 15 kiddos, but it really wasn’t helping me thinking that far into the future.
The three I have are enough for me because right now they are what God has given me, but I will not refuse more and will shift my perception of “enough” to fit his will. I am learning to be content in *all* situations.
Comment by Margaret (March 13, 2008 @ 8:18 am )
These are the comments that never end…Sing it with me folks!
Just kidding.
Glad this is still going but seriously? How do you follow it? It’s like 60 conversations going on at once!
Amy, you probably have a lot more readers than you started with bc of the amount of people I have sent here.
I just wanted to comment real quick about ecological breastfeeding spacing kiddos. It doesn’t work for everyone. That’s all! Ya’ll keep at it!
Be blessed in the LORD today!
†
Natalie
Comment by Natalie (March 13, 2008 @ 9:40 am )
Thanks so much for saying what you did. I think that we have done such a disservice to the body of Christ, by “cherry-picking” verses and telling others that they should live the same way God has called us to. I don’t have 6 kids myself, and admire you for your strength to keep going even though pregnancy is hard for you.
You really blessed me today. Thank you!
Comment by Heather (March 14, 2008 @ 4:01 pm )
I just love this post and the comments! I keep coming back to check if there are more and to read the continuing discussion.
I don’t have much of an opinion on this subject yet, because I am just starting out really. I live in England, where I don’t think ANYONE is QF! Well, probably there are some people, but I only heard of it online. My husband and I are currently praying about this. I have always wanted at least 6 children (completely NOT DONE in this country, it seems!), and my husband has not been sure how many children he wants. Not that many though! We currently have three boys, aged 3, 21 months, and 2 months. I would LOVE to just ditch the anxiety about being the ones in control over the decision to have more each time - it’s so freeing to just let God handle that! I really want to do that once I’m fertile again.
Just a side note from my personal experience. I am currently breastfeeding all THREE of my boys. The older two nurse several times a day at the moment. I breastfed through the night on demand with each of the older boys too, until the end of my first trimester with the next pregnancy and then night weaned due to exhaustion! My cycle returns 5-6 months postpartum regardless of whether I’m exclusively breastfeeding one baby or tandem nursing. It takes me a few months to be fertile though, and then I am eager for another baby so we don’t worry about birth control at that point. I would soooo love to ditch even the thought of using birth control and let God time our next baby!
I worry about my husband saying NO MORE, because I so long for more and I know I need to submit to him if he does. I also worry that GOD will say no more! That’s why we’re praying. We want to let God control our family size, and give us peace over His decision, but I guess that’s all we know for now. We haven’t yet thought about the longer term, or really looked into the Biblical perspective. So this discussion has been very thought-provoking and helpful.
Thank you!
Comment by Alice (March 14, 2008 @ 6:06 pm )
Wow, Alice, you are my hero–nursing three (boys!!!) at once. I have three boys, and I’m not sure I could manage that!
Comment by Margaret (March 15, 2008 @ 10:49 am )
Well, *I* am so happy and blessed to be comment #314!! I haven’t used any methods to prevent my bringing to birth comment #314! It’s not Natural Family Planning, it’s Natural Family POSTING! Some might say my quiver is full, but I’m just open to whatever God wants–even if it means reaching #400!
Live and let live, I say. Some of us live in shoes, some of us wear frocks, some of us deck the halls with boughs of Holly. The point is, who are we to judge?
Enjoy life, throw back a diet coke, and go play with your children! Life is too short to quibble any longer!
Cheerio my maties! It’s off to create comment #315!
Comment by Elizabeth (March 15, 2008 @ 11:06 am )
Elizabeth, I get the biggest kick out of some of your comments! You are so funny!
–Rhonda
Comment by Rhonda (March 15, 2008 @ 4:34 pm )
Hey, I’m confused. Aren’t we all in “the ministry”? Isn’t motherhood a ministry?
Comment by Deb (March 16, 2008 @ 9:39 am )
I’m just another Christian woman blessed by this post. It is timely and has truly brought tears to my eyes. For years I felt that if I were truly godly we’d be of the QF mindset, yet my dh who is a godly leader just didn’t see it as I was leaning. In my heart I knew that I was doing my best with the children we have but it was still falling short of being the mother I feel called to be. Now that our youngest is 3 and I am dealing with more pronounced emotional struggles each month (really hormonal) and trying to wade through them, I’m seeing that our quiver is full. God has blessed us with the number that has both my dh and I at peace, feeling we’re handling all we can effectively for His glory. So we’re homeschooling our 3 and have one waiting for us in heaven. I’m thankful to finally have peace over this.
Comment by Psalm40 (March 16, 2008 @ 12:09 pm )
I have skimmed over most of the comments and one thing I found interesting is that almost no one ( but Angela?) brought up the point about what the Church thought about contraception throughout the ages. It seems most of you aren’t paying the least bit of attention to the fact that almost without exception, christians up until the past 70 or so years believed contraception was sinful. Were they reading a different bible? Do we have a more *enlightened* view these days simply because contraception came on the scene?
Just questions you may want to ponder.
Yes, I do understand that there were probably people who *wished* for some sort of contraception throughout most of history and even tried different types, successfully or not…..still, the issue in my mind is whether or not we are thwarting a design that God had in mind. It isn’t one of those *I’m ok, you’re ok* situations :). Purposely interfering with God’s design always has consequences, which I think there is ample evidence for in this day and age.
That doesn’t mean you must furiously try for 20 children, you may only be blessed with one or none, but you are acknowledging that God has Sovereignty over your marital relations. There are also natural means for birth regulation *if* extreme circumstances require them ( ie: NFP or even abstinence). I think we have totally bought into our cultures mandate that sexual expression in marriage is a *right* we must not deny ourselves of for any reason. It is a good gift, and created for a purpose, but we must not make it a *god* that must be served to the detriment of our obeying
the true God’s will ( ie: I must have the freedom to be intimate with my husband any time but do not want to *risk* having that intimacy result in new life).
Comment by kris (March 16, 2008 @ 3:48 pm )
Kris, I’m not sure what your point is here. If you’re trying to help people see the error of their ways, I don’t imagine they’ll put their palms to their foreheads and say, “Now why didn’t I think of that?!” Sarcasm and hostility aren’t helpful. The best way quiverfull families can make converts is to lead joyful lives with their own children.
I would like to keep this comment thread open. However, I need some people to stop with the hostility and over-the-top rhetoric. Here’s an example of what I mean from “anonymous”:
The end. Yeah, that’s great and profitable.
There has been some great discussion and helpful contributions by many. Let’s keep it that way. Thanks all!
Comment by Amy Scott (March 16, 2008 @ 9:12 pm )
…is it “profitable” to try to be comment number 320? Just for the *fun* of it?
Just askin’.
Comment by Andrea (March 16, 2008 @ 9:22 pm )
Yes and “Elizabeth” gets a free pass (ahem, most of the time) as a heckler because she’s not angry.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 16, 2008 @ 9:25 pm )
LOL!!!
Comment by Andrea (March 16, 2008 @ 9:27 pm )
Kris [post now deleted],
Please see my comments in comment post #206. Thanks.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 17, 2008 @ 8:58 am )
I ::gulp:: haven’t read all the comments but just wanted to add on the exclusive breastfeeding hypothesis:
Perhaps this is true for most people, but it is not true for me. In June, I will have 6 six years old and younger (and I’m not in the quiverfull camp!). I have always exclusively breastfed, breastfed on demand, no supplementing, no pacifiers. Even when I was doing this with TWINS!!! (in other words, spending all of my time “hooked up” to a child), I started my cycle five months after their birth and was pregnant when they were 8 months old.
So…?
Anyway, excellent post. You were careful with your words and your examination of Scripture, and I appreciate that. Thank you.
Comment by Rachel (March 17, 2008 @ 10:37 am )
Most of the disagreements and divisions that occur between Christians can be traced directly to man’s overwhelming (though usually subconscious) desire to take on the role of the Holy Spirit. We try to use human reasoning, philosophy, theology, rhetoric, etc., to expound our personal interpretations and beliefs to those around us. Somehow we develop the deep need to be right and to convince those around us that we are right. We need them to agree with us, so we try to change their hearts and minds. If they don’t agree with us, we feel threatened (although few would admit this) and insecure. We can’t let them disagree with us because then we begin to doubt ourselves.
In the end, hearts and minds are changed only by the Holy Spirit and only in His time. Every logical argument in the world can be delivered up in eloquent and convincing language, but no heart or mind will be conformed to the heart and mind of Christ without the working of the Holy Spirit.
This holds true in every aspect of our earthly walk with God. How should we educate our children? How should be handle reproduction? What should we do with our money? Where should we go to church? What should we read? What should we do with our time? What Bible translation should we use? What should we wear? And on and on.
In every area of life, we can argue ourselves blue in the face in our attempts to usurp God’s position as the One who changes hearts and minds. Every logical, philosophical, theological, reasonable point can be repeated and elaborated and explained and packaged in every way possible, and not one heart or mind will change until the Holy Spirit does the work. Human words and arguments will never produce spiritual wisdom and understanding.
We need to study the Scriptures. We need to exhort and encourage one another. We need to diligently seek out what God wants us to do in each situation. We need to be listening to the Holy Spirit as He gently leads us where He wants us to go. We need to stop believing that He has commissioned us to do His job. We need to stop thinking that we know better than God how to lead His children in the right direction. We need to support each other in this journey through earthly life and help each other to fulfill whatever convictions God has put in our hearts.
Comment by Kelly (March 17, 2008 @ 10:44 am )
Oh MY, I am wondering if maybe comments should be closed? The rhetoric is becoming redundant. It’s starting to become an argument over arguing…I’ve read all 330 comments as they have been written and am voting for an end. Great post Amy.
Comment by Reagan (March 17, 2008 @ 1:26 pm )
My apologies for letting this thread go south. I deleted the arguing over arguing stuff that happened today. First time I’ve done that. Time to close this one out.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 17, 2008 @ 1:40 pm )
[...] especially enjoy her writing, but anybody who appreciates good prose will enjoy reading her, too. This post is one of my all-time favorites of hers. I don’t know Amy at all, but I appreciate [...]
Pingback by sober-minded » Blog Archive » Amy’s Humble Musings (April 3, 2008 @ 8:01 pm )
[...] I have read full quiverful theology . I am not convinced of it , you might like to read this and this which are closer to my views on the issue of birth control but certainly it has [...]
Pingback by Our choice to have a large family Part 2 « tarnya’s tete-a-tete (April 18, 2008 @ 3:13 pm )
[...] and for the first time in my life I started surfing the internet. One night a search brought up this article and I read a blog for the first time. I was totally hooked. I loved reading all about [...]
Pingback by One Ordinary Day » Blog Archive » The Beginning (June 5, 2008 @ 1:01 am )
[...] just came across this post on Thoughts on contraception and the Quiverfull movement and thought I would share it here as it sort of follows on from my previous [...]
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Pingback by Rags : *kendraspondence* (November 12, 2008 @ 8:45 pm )
[...] But thinking about this subject has reminded me of many posts I've read on the subject of fertility from other bloggers, most of whom have different beliefs than mine. Gretchen at Lifenut, though not opposed to birth control, wrote about when the decision to become infertile may be foolish in her post Scarred for Life. Although I do not come to the same conclusions as Jennifer F. on birth control, I have been very moved by her blog Conversion Diary, where she explains her Roman Catholic beliefs on abortion and contraception in her post How I Became Pro-Life. Amy at Amy's Humble Musings wrote about her convictions as part of the protestant Quiverful movement. [...]
Pingback by Closing the Door on Baby-Having (December 30, 2008 @ 8:10 am )
[...] I just wanted to say that your posts have blessed me. Particularly the one I re-read today about QF [Amy: contraception and what conservative Christians refer to as the concept of being [...]
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