Thoughts on contraception and the quiverfull movement
Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008
One of the neat things about our family is that we perpetually have a two-year-old in the house. Two-year-olds are great. Not only are they a lot of fun, but they also provide a ton of illustrations for life. In fact, my fifth child turns two-years-old today. We weren’t sure he’d survive this long with his propensity for eating bugs and jumping off high places, but he did. I’d like to wish him a “Happy Birthday!” but I’d also like a consolation prize for his stressed out parents.
The thing about two-year-olds is that you have to constantly be on your toes. They can be reckless and fearless. They push the boundaries, always on the lookout for a loophole or to see if Mom really means what she says.
I’ve often told one of my toddling children to stay in the family room. Here’s what they do. They go to the edge of the family room where the carpet meets the tile in the kitchen, and then they put their fingers, toes, and miscellaneous body parts on the line. They look to see if I’m watching. They weigh all their options. If I’m far enough away, they might put a scraggly toenail over the line and wait.
Christians are a lot like two-year-olds. They’ll read what the Bible says and then start looking for loopholes and lines. Instead of obeying the spirit of the command, they’ll look to see how much they can get away with before making a technical violation. Instead of just staying in the family room and enjoying it, they want to know what the rules should be if a meteor were to hit the house. It shouldn’t be this way.
The issue of contraception use among Christians is the same. We know that God thinks children are a blessing and a reward. We know that it is normative for married couples to produce children. We know that the world is anti-child and that God calls His people to a different standard. We know that abortificant means of avoiding children are wrong.
Because of these things, I’ve had eight pregnancies in the span of nine years already.
But as folks with straying, scraggly toenails, we also want to know where the line is. What is forbidden, what is required, and what is permissible due to our freedom in Christ? We know that we’re responsible to train our children up in the way they should go. We know that men ought to live with their wives in an understanding way, doing all they can to make sure that the one he is called to cherish isn’t crushed underneath a load that is too heavy for her to bear. We know that God’s commands—while difficult sometimes—are always freeing. We know that a man who doesn’t provide for his family is worse than an infidel. We know that our righteousness is because of Christ and not because of what we do. These things are also true.
The quiverfull movement (QF for short) is good for the support of its members. The culture has gone its own way off a cliff, but they’ve planted the flag. Raising a large family is difficult in our society. We do well to share strategies unique to the challenge. I’ve benefited from it. Where it strays course is when it assigns motives to those outside of it. “Selfish” and “not trusting God” are the catch phrases. I’m not willing to go there. There is not a Bible verse that allows us to do this to one another.
The Bible tells us, “Owe no man anything.” (Should we start an ONMA movement?) This command leaves us less wiggle room and also finds itself in the New Testament. The Bible talks about money a whole lot more than babies. Am I allowed to accuse a person of “not trusting God” if she owed a debt to someone? What about the person who is debt-free and funds the Great Commission because of it?
“Be fruitful” isn’t the trump verse of the Bible. If we were looking for the trump verse, it would have to be Jesus’ words to love God and love our neighbor. He already told us the main thing. (Question to myself: How well am I doing that?) How can we avoid one verse becoming the measuring stick of the condition of our hearts and the vehicle in which churches and groups are built upon?
The woman who has trusted God for the timing and spacing of her children does well. She ought to be praised. Where she fails is when she tells others exactly how they ought to do the same: all birth control is a sin. (A married woman who has produced a child has multiplied technically, were it about technicalities and not loving obedience to a good God.) Saying this isn’t postmodern, wherein one just picks out the verses they especially like and then tells everyone not to judge. The Bible doesn’t bind our consciences in this way, and so we shouldn’t do it to one another. We live with this tension all the time in Scripture. Circumstances don’t dictate theology, but yet we all make judgments and decisions based upon them. Women in China—where they forcefully abort your second child– have to decide in wisdom how to apply Scripture’s words.
Since I’m writing here to my dear friends who agree and disagree with me, it is only right that I am honest about my private thoughts. I’ve often wanted God to give me explicit instructions about my hyperemesis. Is it suffering for Jesus or for my own stupidity? What about the children I’m ignoring for almost a year while I’m pregnant? Can I assume they’ll be godly if left to themselves since I’m obeying the fruitful verse? How do I obey the dozens of admonitions to parent well when I’m not parenting during pregnancy? What about the deep darkness that accompanies nonstop vomiting? Does God have a plan for me? What is it? How can I know it? Does He care? How do I live out this tension?
We could play “Battle of the Verses” and sling it out. Or we could humble ourselves, asking God for wisdom in how to live out His Word. We could reason together without condescending. We could love one another, knowing that there really is a trump verse after all.
I have struggles with this very issue myself. My husband and I have searched scripture and our hearts, we have sought out advice and prayed and prayed and even argued. The conclusion?….well, right now we are in agreement and I am trusting the leadership of my husband. I am at peace. I am thankful for a husband who takes the burden of leadership and goes to the foot of the cross for guidance. Blessings in your quest for guidance as well.
Comment by Kelli B. (March 4, 2008 @ 12:15 pm )
Happy Birthday, un-named little one! I guess we share our children’s birthday on more than one date! My wife and I had a daughter on Nov. 14th that was named Aimee Lynne and now today our other daughter turns four. (Where have the years gone?)
About the Birth Control, We were on the one extreme, absolutely no prevention, for a number of years, many of them while being single. After my wife and I had eight pregnancies in six and a half years, we started wondering about this whole concept. We now have six with us and three with the Lord. I love my children and I hope for some more, but I also know that if we do nothing, my wife will be pregnant almost solidly for the likely, next 14 years! Besides being emotionally draining, it is about to drive her insane with all the hormonal changes that her body is going through. We are now at the place where we are open to more children, but we must first put a little space
between the children to allow her body to rest. No, I am not talking about ten years either! But an understandable amount of time.
Paul tells us to “dwell with our wives according to knowledge.” It falls to us husbands to hear our wives and to seek God’s face for what is the right road for us. No, it may not be the right choice for you, and I won’t hold you to what God is asking of me. But we must not make the choice glibly or selfishly.
If our hearts are open before God, He will show us the path to walk. And yes, for some of us, that means that our hands are always full of sticky fingers.
Comment by Japheth (March 4, 2008 @ 12:21 pm )
Thank you so much for this beautiful, humble and insightful post. I have never known what side I fall on in the quiverfull “debate”. On one side, I love kids, I definitely desire a large family (my family is already large by “normal” societal standards with number 5 arriving in 2 months), but on the other hand (being VERY fertile, with having had 5 kids and 5 miscarriages in 10 years of marriage) I have never felt that 100% conviction that God requires me to “leave the timing and the spacing fully up to Him”.
When my health has required recovery, or life circumstances (babies, international moves, demanding ministry postitions) have weighed on us, we have felt freedom to take “pre-cautions” to allow us a pause to adjust to life, be good stewards of the jobs God has already given us. I am thankful that due to miscarriages and planning we have had 2 years to fully enjoy and nurture each one of our children before the next little bundle arrived.
It has never been a matter of us not “trusting” God, but more of a matter of us feeling that God also gave us brains, He revealed to us through science how pro-creation works, and gives us choices, asking us only to make decisions in consultation with Him and with right motives, not to just let loose and expect Him to step in and alter the course of nature one way or the other.
We never felt convinced that He 100% wanted us to just surrender this area and “go for it” and expect Him to overule the natural course of pro-creaton if the timing wasn’t right, for us that (conception) would be a consequence of our acting in the knowledge He has given us.
Your post really blessed me. Thank you.
Comment by Prairie Chick (March 4, 2008 @ 12:24 pm )
Thank you about being honest about the hyperemesis, it is something I suffered with both of pregnancies and felt the same way about my parenting suffering. I was hospitalized long term with both boys, and at times my life was in danger due to that and other complications. This made it impossible to be with let alone look after my son, leaving him to be looked after by others. I have often wanted another child or 2 or 3 but struggled with the issue of my responsiblity to look after the two I’ve been given. I’ve left the decision up to my husband and to this point he has said no. We are looking at both fostering and adoption, looking for the Lord’s leading in these matters.
Comment by Christina (March 4, 2008 @ 12:31 pm )
Beautifully wrote. What I was trying to say in the post below, but I’m just not as poetic. I will add, from my perspective as an infertile woman with adopted children that they are indeed a blessing and a reward.
Comment by Marie (March 4, 2008 @ 12:32 pm )
Well thought out and said, Amy. I agree.
Comment by Andrea (March 4, 2008 @ 12:37 pm )
Thank you for posting this and the balance. It is more important we don’t judge each other then to push our own convictions. You were bang on that the most important verse is loving Jesus and our neighbors first.
We have always wanted a big family ourselves. Just becasue you leave it up to him doesn’t mean you have lots of kids. We’ve been married 10 years pregnant six times (currently 7 weeks)and have two living children. This pregnancy is having it’s complications already and infertility made getting pregnant in differnt seasons non-exsistant…not matter how hard we tried :o).
Each of us have a path that he sets out for us. It can be hard enough simply to live it at times, much more with others making judgement calls. Encouragment goes a long way!
PS Your my hero….constant vomiting…ugh. I get sick but not like that.
Comment by Sandi (March 4, 2008 @ 12:40 pm )
Hey, Amy. First of all, Happy Birthday to your 2 year old. I have a 10 month old and can relate to your description.
Second, thank you so much for writing this! It is a wonderful balance of grace and truth. If you don’t mind, I really would like to link to it on my blog. I recently posted a little about the way Christians attack each other on this very subject after listening to a sermon on birth control. But you expressed what I was thinking so much better. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
Comment by terry (March 4, 2008 @ 12:52 pm )
Amen!! This one of the best posts I’ve read. I am a Pastor’s wife and in our denomination, doctrines are formed with certain Scriptures. You know…you can’t be a member of our denomination if you don’t follow these teachings. I agree with the teachings 100% BUT…what about all those other Scriptures that are not in our teachings.
I’ve told my husband that maybe it should be in our denomination’s teachings that women shouldn’t work. It is in Titus 2, right? See what I’m getting at here.
I’m not against the QF movement. God bless them. We need to populate this earth with some good people. But I am against a critical, judgemental spirit. Jesus might have called some a Pharisee.
I have 3 children. I do want more. We’d like to have a housefull. We have planned each one but I do not use birth control pills. I know all about that. But nowadays it costs lots of money to have a baby when you don’t have health insurance and we don’t have it. My last baby cost $8,000, and no I didn’t have a C-section. It was all normal. We just cannot
possibly afford that kind of money right now. I’d have to be “owing a man” if we were to get pregnant right now.
Who am I, or anyone else for that matter, to point my finger at someone because they are not doing exactly what *I* think they should do. Maybe I’m not adhearing to a Scripture they are folling to the *T*. We all must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and just love our neighbor. Leave the pointing to the preachers. God called them to it, not me.
I wholeheartedly agree that the trump Scripture is love God with all of your heart and your neighbor as yourself. Love covers a multitude of sin.
Comment by Nikki (March 4, 2008 @ 12:52 pm )
Excellent, excellent post, Amy.
Comment by Jeana (March 4, 2008 @ 1:18 pm )
Well said, Amy. I like that you pointed out the usefulness of “quiverful-minded” folks in finding ways to support one another…it is difficult raising a large family in the culture we live in today, both financially (competing with two-income families) and spiritually (constant criticism from those who don’t understand why you would want to “do that to yourself”.) It is important for them to have support networks for one another, and while I don’t consider my family “quiverfull”, I certainly appreciate the logistical advice that families larger than mine can offer! I admire those qf women who go about their business raising a large family for Jesus even though I do not share the same absolute conviction they do in regards to the spacing or stopping of having babies.
That said, as you pointed out, it is true that we as Christians are always walking that line of tension between personal conscience and conviction and the application of scripture in our dealings with one another. And when we group ourselves together by a specific conviction, we do need to careful not to let that lead and allow an “us vs. them” mentality to prevail.
Again, well said. Thanks!
Comment by Sara (March 4, 2008 @ 1:41 pm )
Very well stated Amy. I personally am unable to relate to any of this since my last child and only child was born 24 yrs ago. Not of my own choosing. My body, God’s choice, hasn’t been productive since.
I do agree with your words though.
Comment by Kimberly (March 4, 2008 @ 1:55 pm )
Amy,
I have been enjoying your posts for awhile but have never commented. I really appreciated this post. I loved your trump verse, which is true. If you love God and your neighbors first the rest will come along with it.
I also think it is interesting in today’s debates on being fruitful that we can forget that God’s purpose for each wife is different. Some of the most important women in the Bible were barren, and then went on to have just one or two children.
Do we remember Sarah (just Isaac), Rebekah( Just Jacob and Esau), Rachel(Joseph and Benjamen), and Hannah( Samuel), Elizabeth(John the Baptist). Maybe being fruitful in God’s eyes is different for each wife and family.
I say this because sometimes, God gives you miracles of life, sometimes he takes them home. I have had three pregnancies, and two children. Trusting God is trusting who he is, not how fruitful he’s made you and the blessings he gives.
Comment by April (March 4, 2008 @ 1:56 pm )
Thank you for this post. My heart is full of emotions on this subject that I can’t seem to put into words, but I needed this. So again my dear sister in Christ, Thank you.
Comment by Mrs. S (March 4, 2008 @ 2:05 pm )
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have recently come across this quiverfull movement and wasn’t sure about it, but the main thing I felt was judgement if I don’t believe exactly what the movement does. I don’t think your post excused using birth control but I don’t think that it accused anyone of being “ungodly” if they do. I don’t beleive the quiverfull movement is something to base a lifestyle/mindset on. I think the Bible/God is the only thing that you can base your life on.
I agree with your idea that love is the main issue. People get pushed aside and pushed out with opinionated mindsets.
Comment by Reagan (March 4, 2008 @ 2:06 pm )
I actually have a question for not just you but others who have had many children. Do you breastfeed on demand?
I have a hypothesis that is really hard to prove. In looking at the Bible, unless you assume that women lost children at a regular rate most of those mentioned did not seem to have that many children given that the allowed and allocated time for “relations” was at the height of furtility. So, my hypothesis that that “possibly” the breastfeeding on deman for a number of years reduced (not eliminated) fertility rates.
Now in this day and age and with some parenting ideas breastfeeding on demand is seen as a sin. However, if it does reduce fertility it would stand to reason that God intended it to be a means for couples to 1. not prevent. 2. not be overwhelmed 3. be gentler on a woman’s body. But still enjoy the “quiverful”.
I myself breastfed on demand my first for 6 months. My cycle started month 7 and I became pregnant month 8. I breastfed on demand for over a year with my second son and did not have a cycle for that time. Not to say that women can not get pregnant without a cycle or get a cycle while breastfeeding on demand but I wonder if the rates are simply reduced to an extent.
I promise I only ask this as a means to prove or disprove my hypothesis. I am still trying to convince my husband of the quiverful idea. He insists on stopping at 4 “arrows”.
P.S. Love your blog
Comment by Colleen (March 4, 2008 @ 2:09 pm )
Colleen,
I agree with your hypothesis. Longer and different breastfeeding methods suppressed ovulation for years, giving women the biological break that they need.
I began thinking about the issue and how sin affects our broken bodies when I became pregnant less than 3 months postpartum. Would it be OK to observe a natural period of rest that was obviously biologically designed but that my body didn’t observe? [This would require NFP which is forbidden by the QF movement; in the cases of premature fertility, I believe it is wise.]
I also suspect that waiting times were longer in days gone by due to the medical/physical nature of it. Anyone who has experienced a barbaric childbirth knows what I’m talking about. Fortunately, that’s rarely the case anymore with modern medicine.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 2:36 pm )
I haven’t had a chance to listen to Mark Driscoll
(I’ve never heard of the guy before now), but will get to it eventually.
Like many of your readers, my husband and I struggled with how many children to have and the practice of birth control (emphasis on practice since, w/ten kids, I didn’t seem to get it). We finally concluded, after the first several kids, that we would trust God with the size of our family. That was what worked FOR US (note the caps), but one size does not fit all.
As I stated in one of my first comments on your blog, I have witnessed a movement within the Reformed community (and I’m Reformed in doctrine) that says that if you don’t homeschool, have large families, etc., it is sin. No joke. Those families, while genuine and faithful to Christ, seem to stay to themselves. Almost all are characterized by “stay-at-home” daughters (no college for most of the women), large families and homeschooling. Further, some of them advocate home churches, i.e., they meet in the home with a select few who adhere to their way of thinking.
This is NOT a criticism, but rather a plea to fellow believers to live and let live. I don’t mean to intimate that the lifestyle should be contrary to Scripture. May it never be! However, on the nonessentials, enjoy the differences in thinking and thought. Use those philosophical differences as a means of discourse. Don’t let them be a stumbling block to the real order of business, i.e., to let our lights shine before men so that they’ll see our good works and glorify God. Don’t let those differences keep you from fellowshipping with other Christians who don’t think exactly like you do. After all, as brothers and sisters in Christ, we have the same blood coarsing through our veins.
As far I’m concerned, birth control, large families and homeschooling should be left to the individual conscience.
As believers, our lives are to reflect Christ. I have a hard enough time obeying that command. Sigh…
Comment by Cathy (March 4, 2008 @ 2:42 pm )
I have a lot of QF friends. I hope they will take a stab at your question here.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 2:47 pm )
Sorry. I replied to Rachel’s comment under the wrong thread.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 2:50 pm )
Amy,
A quick question..and a sincere one at that :).
Were you following “ecological” breastfeeding when you became pregnant at 3 months? If you say yes, you’re going to really scare me!!
Comment by mamashortcake (March 4, 2008 @ 2:54 pm )
Amy and Colleen-
You both make excellent points about the physiological “break” from fertility that frequent breastfeeding may or may not provide. The early fertility that Amy references is almost certainly the result of our hardy, 21st century bodies, well-tended as they are with good nutrition, clean, plentiful water, and modern medical care. It is yet another interesting question of whether or not we interpret Scripture in light of a vastly different culture. I watched the Driscoll sermon, and much prefer Amy’s honestly to his. For someone with a background in philosophy, he commits many rhetorical crimes. The ad hominem stuff really made me cringe. I wanted to watch the sermon on humor to see if he could justify the biting comments he used to “lighten up” what is obviously such a weighty subject.
I so appreciate this discussion.
Comment by Patti (March 4, 2008 @ 3:13 pm )
Well, I would say I fall under the “quiverfull” mindset, but my thoughts are along the lines of Amy’s fifth paragraph. It is all a matter of the heart. Are we seeking what God’s word says on the issues of life? And, not allowing the world’s “theology” to screw up our thinking?
On a personal note, I breastfeed my children exclusively for the first six months of their lives. Then, I introduce solids, and I don’t wean the baby until about 11 or 12 months. I don’t have any cycle during that time. And, my first cycle(s) are not necessarily fertile. For us, God has spaced our children about 2 to 2 1/2 years apart - in my opinion, quite perfect (though, I wouldn’t mind them closer!).
Some interesting thoughts here.
Comment by Sheila (March 4, 2008 @ 3:28 pm )
This is such a touchy subject but I appreciate and am grateful for how you share your beliefs without shoving them on people and telling them they are sinning.
I’d love to have more kids. I have faith and trust in the Lord. I also have the blessing of beyond horrible depression during pregnancy and after which is made worse by each pregnancy. Watching what happened to my mom, who I got this from, after she had her sixth has caused us to proceed with caution. After our second child, and much prayer and contemplation and the depression worsening (I had no symptoms before my first pregnancy) we made the decision to sterilize.
We have always wanted more children but knew that I would not be able to carry them and care for our family. So through prayer and time and more prayer and more time, we found peace and an answer that fits with the scriptures we’ve been taught and studied. We kept in mind the mother’s health.
And we’ll adopt the rest of our children and live such so that we have the means to do so.
But to have more children for our family meant that I could not carry them.
I guess what I’m saying is, I understand times when birth control is necessary. I also understand and appreciate the concept of agency. I am grateful when couples take the time to prayerfully decide what is right for them with the counsel of the Lord.
Comment by Angela (March 4, 2008 @ 3:30 pm )
So here’s the ten dollar question: Is it possible to agree with what I’ve said and be quiverfull at the same time?
I’d say no. What say you?
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 3:39 pm )
In answer to the $10 question, I’d say no. Because the idea of QF is that we take no measures to control our family size or fertility, placing it totally in God’s hands, including taking no thought for the mother’s well being or any such thing, am I correct?
Hmmm…lots to think about.
Comment by terry (March 4, 2008 @ 3:46 pm )
Interesting thoughts about breastfeeding vs. fertility. I hadn’t thought about how healthier we probably are now vs. in the past and how that almost certainly affected fertility and spacing of children. My cycle has always come back at 6 months (so far). I have always breastfed on demand and my first son was still exclusively breastfed until 9 months of age (he refused to take a bottle or solid foods until I quit nursing him completely) and I had to wean him because he was losing weight as I was 3 months pregnant and no longer producing much milk. It does make you wonder whether the original design was more in line with not becoming pregnant again until breastfeeding ceased or greatly decreased. Although being healthier is certainly not something I want to give up. But you’re right, it’s almost impossible to prove now.
Comment by rachel (March 4, 2008 @ 3:48 pm )
Good post! Thank you for taking the time to write it. I have also heard Driscoll’s sermon.
kim from little sanctuary
Comment by kim (March 4, 2008 @ 3:52 pm )
Amy, your last question is one that I would ask, as well.
I have felt that we rather line up with the Quiverfull concept. I have been able to toss aside the things that I didn’t agree with. For example, I don’t believe in the extreme…such as if a woman has cancer she must continue to be open to pregnancy, or if an ectopic pregnancy occurs you should do nothing. (Resulting in death for the mother?)
But what does a person call themselves? If not quiverfull (which I have thought I was, but by that I meant I think that our society is anti-life and that not so many Christian couples even consider whether or not they should use any kind of birth control….not that I wanted to control other people.)
I have felt that the option is to say that “anything goes,” which I do not agree with either.
I’ve tried to come up with a “statement” that says something like “I don’t know what to call myself now. But I believe that couples should be open to life, and should not carelessly use birth control without praying and thinking about it.” You know, on-line, people are more aware. In my everyday life, contraception is no big deal in Christian families. It’s just something you do. How do you urge thoughtfulness and the possibility of more children without just waving a hand and saying,”it’s all good as long as you love Jesus?”
Side note 1: That was my first Mark Driscoll sighting. Interesting.
Side note 2: If you have already yelled extensively at me in the last week…the quota is filled. Peace.
Comment by Holly (March 4, 2008 @ 3:52 pm )
I say I LOVE your approach and your spirit as you deal gently with these issues..
And no, you’re probably not “technically” QF. Neither am I. But how I love the kids the Lord gives!
For us, we’re taking a couple of months out to figure out what went wrong with my last pregnancy. There are preventable causes of miscarriages, you know! I would shudder to think that someone might wag their finger in my face and tell me to get pregnant right away even if I’m guaranteed to miscarry because medical issues haven’t been resolved!
Comment by Amy from SD (March 4, 2008 @ 3:54 pm )
I would say no, as far as I understand the “Quiverfull Movement”.
(I use italics to differentiate between the verse they base the movement on and the movement. It is possible to have your “quiver full of these” as the verse says and still use forms of birth control. In my humble opinion. No where does God say how many is a “quiver full” and I don’t think it matters.)
Comment by rachel (March 4, 2008 @ 3:54 pm )
I have a couple of questions that are worth far less than $10. What if a woman who wants a lot of children is infertile? What if she wants to adopt, but the costs attached are so prohibitive that she can’t afford it? Is she somehow disobedient to Scripture by not replenishing the earth? Obviously, the answer is an unequivocal “no.” So, how then, is it construed as sin if a woman (and her husband) decide that they don’t want a large family? By today’s standards, more than two children is considered a large family. BTW, God can override our decisions at any time, so that even if one uses birth control, God can still give children.
Cathy
Comment by Cathy (March 4, 2008 @ 3:56 pm )
Wow. I’m glad to know that my husband and I aren’t the only ones dealing with these things. Few women in the circle of Mothers I know discuss these things. A lot of my friends have three kids and we all act like that’s a lot. I’ve only “met” women with larger families on-line. (Maybe the rest can’t make it out the door!) We’ve got two darling boys at 2 years and 6 months. After #1 was born, we wanted to wait a year until I got pregnant again and took measures to assist in that delay. One year and a week later, while still nursing, I was pregnant. After #2 we’ve hemmed and hawed, but finally in January decided to just see what happens.
After #1 my period returned on month three, but this time it has just started. We’ve prayed that we’ll have a bit of space between #2 and #3, but we’re just going with the flow. For us, this time, it’s what we have peace with.
What will God decide? I have no idea. We’re in agreement though to just trust in Him.
Thank you for your kind and insightful post. We’ll never please everyone, no matter what we choose. We’d best make sure we are focussed just on pleasing Him.
Comment by Kimberly (March 4, 2008 @ 4:06 pm )
The Quiver full movement has been hurtful to this momma of a smallish brood. I’ve found that it too often feeds the Hagar and Leah in a woman.
Let us remember that “quiver full” can’t be determined by the outward appearance! Strangers don’t know how big my quiver is–*I* don’t even yet know how big my quiver is! Only God knows how big my quiver is.
And if we can’t know the size of a couple’s quiver, how can we determine when it’s full?
Comment by Grafted Branch@Restoring the Years (March 4, 2008 @ 4:11 pm )
Thanks for shedding more light on QF. I don’t know a lot of QF families, but always assumed that we were in that camp. Maybe not…
I have infertility issues, but we have fostered dozens, adopted six, hopefully soon to be seven. God has created our family in a different way than most families, but His way is perfect. What joys and blessings we would have missed if I was fertile Myrtle. (Oh, I know I could sit and think about all the blessings I’ve missed by not bearing my “own” but who has time for that with seven under nine!)
Love the trump verse, Amy, and plan to refer to it as such in the future. I believe we can and should set the example for saved and unsaved alike regarding the raising of children. I get asked all the time how I do it, and I’m always happy to say it’s not me, but Christ in me. Some people’s eyes glaze over. Some get it.
BTW Christina, I sincerely encourage you to consider fostering/adopting. It’s a wonderful opportunity to live out James 1:27.
Comment by Lynette (March 4, 2008 @ 4:15 pm )
Excellent post.
Comment by Marian (March 4, 2008 @ 4:20 pm )
Wonderful post! I felt this was very balanced.
Comment by Mrs. Taft (March 4, 2008 @ 4:21 pm )
Someone asked if I was ecologically breastfeeding when I found myself expecting at three months postpartum.
Yes. She slept latched-on too.
Many of you know I have supply issues, but I don’t offer supplements until I absolutely have to. Back then, I hadn’t begun supplementing.
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 4:23 pm )
Hi Amy,
I am sitting here at my computer and realise this has become almost a live discussion. I keep refreshing my page and there are new comments. LOL! Maybe we should actually have a live “chat”. I just want to say thank you for you honesty and openess. We have been very strong anti-birth control, and over the years the the Lord has really chastened us for the judgment we have given others in our hearts. Not even knowing their circumstances, or walking in their shoes, judging motives. It is only after humblings from the Lord and walking through some hard valleys ourselves that we have seen how much need there is for charity in the Christian community. Each couple needs to sort out these things between each other and the Lord. He deals with each of His children in the way perfectly suited for them. Although, we do not agree completely with Mr. Driscoll, I do think he had some wise words to say. We must be careful to look at the whole council of God. If fathers are truly taking their responsiblities seriously than they will cherish their wives. My dh has always had the approach that if we are viewing children as a blessing, then he must support me as much as he possibly can. He has been an amazing husband and father in this way. Too many men are like Mr Driscoll described and are out of touch with what their wives and children need.
These are hard questions, truly. But, may we each walk in charity one with antoher. Thanks Amy, I feel like you are a friend that I visit with often!
Comment by Mrs E (March 4, 2008 @ 4:26 pm )
Amy, I appreciated your approach to this: exhorting love.
Ought we show ‘love’ at the expense of truth? No. They go hand in hand. But pretty often we’re promoting gray (at least, nonessential) areas at the expense of love.
Comment by lizzykrsitine (March 4, 2008 @ 4:27 pm )
Okay, I kind of hesitate in asking this question, first because it’s not really any of my business, and second because the answer may be obvious,and so the question is stupid. Am I just not “getting it”? On the one hand I am reading that you are not QF, on the other hand looking at your pregnancy history I wonder how you could not consider yourself QF. What am I missing? How would you describe your practice (or not) of family planning, and how did you arrive at this?
thanks for addressing such a compelling issue. It is one that I think about every day.
Comment by Jenny (March 4, 2008 @ 4:32 pm )
Amy - This was a great post. I, too, am struggling with wanting God’s plan and desiring the blessing of more children and yet not feeling able to handle another pregnancy yet. Just another opportunity to pray:)
Comment by Shannon Miller (March 4, 2008 @ 4:33 pm )
“Instead of just staying in the family room and enjoying it, they want to know what the rules should be if a meteor were to hit the house.”
I love that line, lol!
I agree with Holly. I would have considered myself “quiverful minded” even though I only have three children; being that my husband believes that is enough. After this post (thanks, Amy!) I would consider myself Biblical Minded. I agree with God that children are a blessing. I also acknowledge that it is He that opens and closes the womb. I can also lovingly and humbly submit to my husband’s leading in this area knowing that he is being lead by the Holy Spirit just as I am.
This has afforded an opportunity to really think about the Quiverfull Movement. I’ve read the mindset on MOMYS that to not be Quiverfull is to be sinning (I love MOMYS and the wisdom to be had there, don’t get me wrong). But as Amy points out, this is not Biblical.
If you look at Quiverfull as a heart issue and not law, then I think, yes. I can agree with Amy and be Quiverfull-as the Lord sees Quiverfull, not man.
Lovingly submitted
Comment by Debbie (March 4, 2008 @ 4:43 pm )
I am wondering where you got the idea that the Chinese FORCE abortion for every child past the first one?
Comment by Rebecca (March 4, 2008 @ 4:47 pm )
Thank you - this was very encouraging for me.
Comment by Charlotte (March 4, 2008 @ 4:50 pm )
Mark Driscoll is a whack. And possibly a dangerous one.
I’ve listened to many a preacher like him and there’s only one way their ministry ends. And it ain’t pretty.
I grew up in a church that preached this kind of ugly QF theology. And yes, I do think it’s ugly. Because I’ve seen first hand women whose poor bodies are near to breaking after rounds and rounds of miscarriages, pregnancy complications, etc. I’ve seen kids with tattered clothes and poor nutrition because their parents couldn’t provide adequately for their needs. I’ve seen toddlers left to wander around alone in droopy diapers because Mommy is so sick on the couch from multiple pregnancies that she can’t watch them.
I’m sorry, but that is NOT what God intended, and no-one can convince me otherwise.
Then again, some women bounce back like a rubber ball and ask for more. More power to them. Their husbands can make enough money for all their needs and everyone is relatively healthy—then fine.
But to sit back and preach and condemn and excoriate women for not getting repeatedly pregnant? That is just so wrong!
If anything is sinful, it’s not the couple who uses condoms. It’s the people who berate them for doing so.
Comment by Elizabeth (March 4, 2008 @ 4:50 pm )
This is the fascinating thing, Jenny. I can’t be considered QF because I allow for the use of birth control done in faith (ala Romans), even if I do not use it personally. Like Holly mentioned above, there seems to be some sort of paradox here. I’m probably more quiverfull in practice, if you will, than the mom running on about it with her two toddlers. I’ve done the hard, hard work. I’ve paid a dear price for not using birth control (which I believe the blessing has outweighed in the end).
Where does the boasting come from?
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 4:51 pm )
You have written similiar posts like this and every time I read these even at 48 I feel sad that because everyone was getting their tubes tied after 2 children in our Presbyterian PCA church I had mine tied.I did have severe pre-eclampsia and was told it would have been good to do so because any future pregancies would have been harmful to my health.Also since I lost my mother at 5 due to cancer I was determined that I would rather be a well mom to 2 then a dead or unhealthy mom to 3 children!!
Speaking of breastfeeding,when I breast fed we were told to start solids at 4 months.I did nurse my daughter until she was 13 months old even when I had salmonella and my son for 16 months.
Comment by Tammy (March 4, 2008 @ 4:53 pm )
Well said. You already know my heart on this one.
Comment by Laura in KY (March 4, 2008 @ 4:54 pm )
Thank you, thank you. Your humble response is very refreshing in the midst of this battle. Thank you for reminding me that God’s glory is our ultimate purpose, not living by others’ standards.
May God continue to glorify himself through you.
Comment by Kimberly (March 4, 2008 @ 4:54 pm )
Right here. You can google for a few thousand more stories…
Comment by Amy Scott (March 4, 2008 @ 4:59 pm )
Elizabeth, um, I can only assume you didn’t listen to the sermon?
Comment by Sara C (March 4, 2008 @ 5:02 pm )
Thank you.
Also, the same is true for homeschooling. It is truly an admirable calling, but I would go so far as to say that it is a sin to project that calling onto other people and judge them for not homeschooling.
Anytime we are sure that we have all the right answers and everyone else should be doing exactly as we do, we are caught in the sin of pride.
Which is sticky, because there is only one right answer for salvation. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to that Father except through Him.
But therein lies a sort of answer–it is about His perfection, not ours. Those who boast must boast in the Lord. And the Lord is not about putting others down in order to feel better about ourselves; the Lord is not about imposing rules. Jesus was openly displeased when the Pharisees rewrote the Law to make it about following rules instead of living a life of love (hence His reset to remind them of the “trump verses”: love God and love your neighbor, Mark 12:29-31).
I love the Law and the whole Old Testament. I love them because they show me the heart of God. If I love God, I want to know Him, and I want to know what is pleasing to Him. The Old Testament and the Law help me to know God and to know what pleases (and displeases) Him… because the Lord never changes; He is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that includes the times of the Old Testament.
I read my Bible. I have read through it three times (please don’t take that as a boast–I am just stating a fact–some people have read through the Bible fifty times, other people spend their time organizing their closets and training their children to be helpful, and I admire that a lot). I continue to read my Bible. I am sure I have missed things. It is a very big book. But honestly, so far I have never seen the Bible say anything specific about homeschooling or birth control. It says we should multiply and populate the earth, but I think this is a joint project for humanity. Every couple doesn’t need to try to fulfill that command “singlehandledly.”
Where the Bible is not specific, we must have grace with one another. We can afford to do this, because the Bible is plenty specific where it needs to be.
Comment by ruth (March 4, 2008 @ 5:05 pm )
Wow, Amy, I don’t think there’s another blogger out there that balances truth and grace as well as you do. Thank you. Your idea of a “trump verse” is dead-on, and beautiful.
I’m confused by the commenter above that calls Mark Driscoll a whack and then goes on to agree with him–perhaps she had Mark Driscoll with a certain leader of the QF movement?
You know, what strikes me as very sad is that the QF seems to hold, in its very definition, that everyone MUST believe that way. What a shame. Because there are people like you, Amy, who take what is best about the QF movement, and what is best about the un-QF-but-still-sincere-followers-of-Christ, and you meld it into something beautiful and honorable and scriptural, and you have still managed to speak out in love and grace. I suspect there are a lot more people like you (possibly even within the “strict” QF movement). I sure hope there are, anyway.
Comment by Rocks In My Dryer (March 4, 2008 @ 5:09 pm )
I think you have some good thoughts here, and I hope this conversation is a fruitful one for you and all the readers you have.
A few years ago I wrote about the shift in belief my husband and I had on the quiverfull issue. You can read it here:
http://dollymama.blogspot.com/2005/08/quiver-full-anyone.html
The short version is that while the Bible is absolutely not clear on it never being ok to prevent pregnancy, it is clear about:
bringing up our children in the nurture and admonition of God (Ephesians 6:4), and my husband’s charge to take good care of me (aka loving me like Christ loves the church- Ephesians 5:25)
I think where QF fails is in what the Bible calls “counting the cost.” (Luke 14:28) I have lots more at the above link.
I think you are on the right track with asking some tough questions about whether or not your older children are going to be ok while you are out of commission. I can tell you that for our family, my older children were definitely suffering, as we needed to make sure we were being faithful to the children we had already been blessed with, rather than squeezing our eyes shut and plugging our ears and pretending that the quiverfull issue mattered more than anything else.
I would certainly encourage all Christian couples to examine their hearts and attitudes about childbearing, and not to just blindly set a number of kids to have a spacing between them. But, I think there is room, and even encouragement, in scripture, for wise and humble planning and a balanced perspective.
Comment by Dollymama (March 4, 2008 @ 5:27 pm )
Elizabeth,
I totally get what you’re saying. My contention, though, is in the sentence in which you said:
“but that is NOT what God intended…”
Exactly what didn’t God intend? Since God gives life, then who are we to say that isn’t what God intended? God is sovereign. How do we really know what He intended? Sorry, Babe, you know I love your blogs and your thoughts, but that sentence gave me pause.
Comment by Cathy (March 4, 2008 @ 5:28 pm )
I would like to say, as a mother of 8 who still has fertile years left…that it is not always easy to know what I can handle. Has anyone else faced that?
(And I’m not talking about mothers who suffer dreadfully, nor severe health conditions, nor those who suffer infertility, nor children who are uncared for because mama is so ill…. I feel great sympathy for those cases.)
If I had only had the children that I thought I could handle, I would have stopped at 4. (Well, maybe 2.) I don’t trust myself to know what is good for me. Given a chance, I will always think that I can’t do something, can’t handle something. (Again, not talking about broken bodies…talking about the normal pains and agonies of pregnancy and getting older…)
I think once a day, at least…on a GOOD day…I can’t handle this. There have been times in the recent past when my husband was unemployed, where we thought, “we can’t afford this!”
And yet, if I had not allowed God to work in our lives thru another child - I would not have given Him room to move, to provide, to make me grow even more.
And of course, every day, HE gives me reasons why I CAN do this, thru His strength.
So, I guess that is just another question. How do you know when you are relying on your own wisdom, and how do you know when you need to rely more on God’s wisdom or provision? (Sincere question. Hard for me to always know…)
Comment by Holly (March 4, 2008 @ 5:39 pm )
Love your remarks Ruth. Grace. God’s Grace is amazing.
Comment by JenMarie (March 4, 2008 @ 5:40 pm )
Elizabeth,
I think there are two ways in which we can look at this though. Having been one of those that was anti-birthcontrol, I can say that there are QF people out there who are truly desiring in faith to trust God with this issue. Yes, they may have baggy diapered children running around, they may have dirty faces because Mama is sick on the couch. But, they truly are seeking to walk in faith. They are trusting the Lord to take their frailty and insuffiencies and to work them for His glory. Charity is to be extended both ways. Those who are QF must extend it to those who are in a different place, and visa versa those who feel the Lord has led them down a different path must extend charity to those who are QF. My husband and I are STILL grappling with the b/c issue and we must love each other as we deal with these sensitive topics. So please, do not look upon these mothers who ARE seeking to please the Lord in the way they feel is best, even if it does not look the way we think it should look.
Comment by Mrs E (March 4, 2008 @ 5:41 pm )
Interesting question and my answer/opinion is completely mine. I am not trying to be sarcastic.
I have no children but how does one know that they aren’t just going off of their own wisdom by having LOTS of children??? I know christian, faithful couples who don’t have a lot of children who God led in a different direction than having lots of kids (they are actually in ministry. I think the idea is that THROUGH TRUSTING IN GOD you can handle anything. Sure, God is going to provide for you if you are faithful in obedience to what he has for YOU. Daily, I think to myself that I can’t handle certain things and I DON’T EVEN HAVE KIDS. I think God grows us in whatever situations we are in and that if we are faithful he will provide. I don’t think we have to test God by saying “okay I am going to have a lot of kids to see how God will take care of us”.
Comment by Reagan (March 4, 2008 @ 6:02 pm )
Fasinating discussion. I am 40, have 7 children (18-1.5 yrs). We are not qf as defined. However, as I consider both “sides” I find myself benefiting from the qf mindset which says children are a heritage from the Lord and are a blessing, otherwise, as I look at our physical circumstances, small home, very modest household budget, etc. and the challange of trying to parent in a way that my oldest daughters do not feel like that have spent their youth mothering their younger siblings and wonder if I am crazy to have “SEVEN” kids. I find myself feeling jealous of Christian couples who have no problem stopping at two or maybe three. Our home would not be so small, our budget, not so tight if we “felt” likewise. I want to remind everyone who questions our decision, myself included sometimes, that our “lifestyle” was pretty much the norm a couple of generations ago. I spend a good part of my day REMINDING myself that God Word assures us children ARE a blessing and my husband and I are truely blessed. The qf mindset is helpful in this way. I guess I feel guilty either way. Guilty for maybe not “having” the children God “has in mind” or trying to justify having more in some pretty tight circumstances.
Comment by Deb H. (March 4, 2008 @ 6:05 pm )
I think Elizabeth is on the right track. It makes no sense to hold to a Biblical ideal while forsaking actual Biblical scriptures. Sometimes people who stick strictly to “anti-birth control” Biblical ideals while forsaking myriads of other scriptures of caring for the children, raising them in love and to fear God are often not “walking by faith” but walking either under fear of judgement of others or a puffed up pride in themselves. Neither of these are “what God intended.”
Comment by Colleen (March 4, 2008 @ 6:12 pm )
Amy… you have outdone yourself on this one! Beautiful, compassionate, seasoned with grace, compelling and thoughtful. You are a wise, wise woman!
We just had our sixth baby last summer and I’m 41 years old. I have used a variety of birth control over the years before the Lord changed our hearts(including the pill in my early foolish ignorant early days of marriage). My husband after baby number three had a vasectomy and we were happy campers… until my baby boy turned two and baby fever gripped me in a mighty way. Through a series of miraculous and too-long-to-go-into-in-a-comment-section circumstances, he had a reversal and I was pregnant before my husband went back for his check up!
After our little Hannah was born, my husband - against my wishes - had another vasectomy. I grieved so much over this because the Lord had begun to change my heart and I now began to see our fertility as a gift. The Lord granted us a ’second chance’. Who were we to turn down such a wonderful gift? Nine months later I got pregnant again! I considered our baby girl God’s special bonus for me! My husband’s second vasectomy worked just fine… it was that little ‘8 week rule’ we violated.
Then even more miraculously, over the next few years the Lord changed my husband’s heart on this issue completely apart from me. I was content with our five children though I would have loved to have more. My husband had his second vasectomy reversal two years ago and our baby boy is now seven months old!
It’s an amazing thing! My husband and I joke that we are in the Lord’s ‘remedial class’ of spiritual growth because we certainly are slow learners! Ha! He has seen fit to give us back the gift of babies TWICE! What a longsuffering and compassionate God we have!
I say all that to say I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. I would not consider myself ‘quiverful’ in the sense of the ‘movement’ and its theology. I would consider myself ‘quiverful’ in the sense that we see children as a blessing and are trusting the Lord to increase our family as He sees fit. (I am on the backside of 41 here so we’re not talking many babies here.)
It is a blessed, comforting and easy calling for me. My pregnancies are easy, uncomplicated and my labors are quick. I have fabulous older children that make a new baby in the home hardly noticeable for all their help. I believe everyone has to weigh their convictions and situations in light of prayer and God’s word and decide for themselves. I am soooo not about legalism and imposing one’s convictions on others.
Your words were comforting and a blessing to me and I’m sure any wife and mother who is struggling with the issue… and certainly any mom who is struggling with guilt over it.
You are a tremendous blessing, dear Amy!
Comment by Lady Why (March 4, 2008 @ 6:29 pm )
cathy: read colleen (comment 62). that’s exactly what i meant by “not what God intended.” thanks, colleen.
also, my riff on mark driscoll was separate from my riff on qf.
Comment by Elizabeth (March 4, 2008 @ 6:38 pm )
Ladies, Don’t ask me how I know this, but a child with a saggy diaper and a dirty face can STILL bring glory to God.
Comment by Myfriendconnie@Smockity Frocks (March 4, 2008 @ 6:58 pm )
Thank you, Amy, for your thoughtful, gentle, and wise words on this sometimes controversial topic. You are a blessing to so many Christian women who seek encouragement from other Christian women in the blogosphere. Thank you. And “Happy Birthday!” to the Terrific Two in your home!
Comment by Caroline (March 4, 2008 @ 7:05 pm )
Good things to think about. I’m with you on the puking!
Comment by Debra (March 4, 2008 @ 7:19 pm )
Amy,
I’m 28, single, and I work for a Christian ministry in Colorado. There was no logical reason for me to start reading your blog when I did a couple of years ago. But ever since then, I return to your blog, looking for fresh encouragement to believe that I someday too will be able to handle the challenges and joys of marriage and motherhood, by God’s grace.
I’m not great with words but what I really want you to know is that your blog affects my heart every time I read it. And I read *a lot* of mommy/homeschool blogs (don’t ask why, it’s just one of my interests).
Thank you for just being you and for encouraging women like me, even though you may not know it.
http://www.esther2911.wordpress.com
Comment by Anonymous (March 4, 2008 @ 7:39 pm )
About the $10 question. I wouldn’t worry too much about that label. God knows your heart, Amy. Don’t worry whether or not you qualify.
I have nursed 5 babies, 4 succesfully. I prefer a “schedule” (please don’t freak on me) and I have found that my cycle returns fairly quickly. I think it is more about the number of feedings verses feeding on demand. If I had just added one more feeding I’d bet my cycle would not have returned. I have two kiddos 15 months apart and the third one 20 months later!
Amy, even though I have not had hyperemesis I want you to know that I sympathize with your thoughts and feelings on that issue. Thank you for being so honest.
And thank you for such a gracious discussion on this very controversial issue.
Comment by Janet (March 4, 2008 @ 7:42 pm )
Good thoughts, Amy. I have enjoyed reading the comments, too, especially Holly’s and Mrs. E’s…the sight of a baggy-diapered, dirty-faced babe and mama sick on the couch just MIGHT be an opportunity to bless someone. I would venture to question why so many are willing to step up and help out a mama expecting her second (sick on the couch with #1 running amuck) and yet once she passes the societal norm of two or three the state of her children becomes an opportunity for judgement?
I’ve seen more baggy diapered, dirty faced children due to mamas sitting at the computer than due to morning sickness, by the way…
Anyway, I hesitate violently to “label” myself as part of the QF movement. Although some might find that amusing since I’m expecting my 12th, I’m too tired to be emphatic about anything (LOL) and your post speaks truth enough without any input from me!
Oh, someone above mentioned Hannah as an example of a Biblical woman who only had one child. This is incorrect; she went on to have five more after Samuel (1 Sam 2:21).
Comment by Jenni (March 4, 2008 @ 7:50 pm )
I certainly understand your reasons for being hesitant to post on this, Amy, but I am so glad you did. We need to hear from more people who combine truth and grace as beautifully as you do.
We homeschool, we have four children and our ideas on dating are not quite mainstream. There are few to none at our church who see these issues the same way we do, and we often get snide comments, or are presumed “legalistic” by people who don’t even know us. There are, perhaps, churches where we would fit in better in practice, but these are the ones who lean toward thinking all of these things are sin issues. We don’t believe they are sin issues, we believe they are mostly wisdom issues; which is not to say that we think we are so much wiser than anyone else, it’s just to say we are choosing what we believe to be the wisest choice.
So it seems that when it comes to fellowshipping with other believers, it seems we can choose between being “the weirdos who are way too strict” and “the weirdos who are not strict enough.”
Which is a very long way of saying, it’s good to know there are others out there who see a middle ground.
And I realize my comment has nothing to do with birth control; I’m speaking more to the attitudes surrounding it.
Comment by Jeana (March 4, 2008 @ 7:51 pm )
This is such a timely post for me. Dh and I became Christians six years ago now (when we had a two year old and a baby), and DH and I decided that birth control was a sin right away. How could it not be, if children were a blessing, and infertility is a curse?
Everything was fine until I got pregnant much sooner than ‘expected’ with #5. (I thought breastfeeding would work like it had before, and hold off my periods for longer.) I got so sick and so tired, on top of having four little ones to care for. I was sick enough I couldn’t even sleep at night, and I was already dreading the pain of another birth. I kept wishing the blessing (my sweet little baby) couldn’t just show up on my doorstep, but of course that’s not how it works. I had to deal with the sickness and pain too.
It was during this time that I saw that I was making my Rules, my One Right Way, into something very judgemental and legalistic– and I was putting it before people and love and relatonships.
I realized some things (like never spacing babies, or always having to have home births) are just NOT in the Bible in black and white, and that we need to follow the Holy Spirit in these areas. That is what He is for- God wants us to depend on Him for leading and guidance, not man-made doctrine, even if it’s our own doctrine.
It some ways it was very scary for me, because it is easier to follow a list of rules than to wait on His guidance… But I am so glad I see now that you can be a good Christian and be led by the Holy Spirit to make different choices than other good Christains, who are being led in their own way.
So, after three home water births, I am going to the hospital and getting an epidural this time. If I start dreading the birth pain from the moment I see ‘two lines’ on the test, I do not think that I am acting in love. And after six years of trusting nothing but the natural man/laws of nature when it comes to conception… I am ready to trust the Holy Spirit and where ever he leads my husband, and then me, to do next.
This has just been my own personal journey, and sometimes I am still nervous about it. I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes… But in my more rational moments, which is most of the time!, I have peace about it and I thank God for showing me a different way when we needed one.
Comment by Anonymous (March 4, 2008 @ 8:25 pm )
I’ve tried to listen to Mark Driscoll twice and my pc closes down about 1/2 way through. I’ve gotten through his 16 points of a Christian world view but that all. Can someone summarize the rest?
I nursed exclusively for 6mos with #1 and #3 and exclusively for 12mos with #2. All three times my normal period returned within 2-3 mos of giving birth. (I also gained weight while nursing instead of loosing it!) Our bodies and I believe God’s plans for them are all different. Too, His Word stands and we yield.
Only He see ours hearts.
Amy, as I see it you are doing pretty well loving your neighbor through these posts!
Comment by Jenifer (March 4, 2008 @ 8:41 pm )
I think it’s not a question of bc vs. no bc, but rather humility vs. pride, grace vs. legalism, and love vs. judgment. I have seen people become very prideful on both sides of this issue, and I have seen them fall…hard. I was quite judgmental of those with large families for many years. I made all the rude comments that we all cringe at. I was very proud that I was such a wise steward of what God had given me and stopped at two. I sneered at the harried mothers of many, whose babies had saggy diapers and children had mismatched clothes.
I found out that pride really does come before a fall. I fell into depression. I wasted a lot of time looking for a “ministry” to fulfill me, not realizing that I already had one. God changed my heart. We denounced bc and have three more children. I battled pride over my new found knowledge, so glad that I had found the “truth”. I lost that battle more often than not. After our fourth, I sank into a horrible ppd. At the urging of my amazing husband, I went on meds for 6mos. and learned a lot about grace.
Here’s what I’ve learned: God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I need that grace. Without it, I am lost, no matter how many children I have. I cannot compare my family, or myself, to others. I do not have that liberty, even in Christ. The women I most admire are those that are not spouting what they believe about birth control, pro or con. They are quietly raising their children, loving their husbands, and serving their Lord, seemingly unconcerned about what others are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.
Comment by Tara (March 4, 2008 @ 8:42 pm )
This post shows how you truly live up to the title of your blog. Thank you fellow sister in Christ.
Comment by Katy (March 4, 2008 @ 8:52 pm )
Thank you for the this wonderful, thoughtful post.
As the mother of 5 living and several miscarriages, and at the end of my childbearing years. I can say that the only child you will ever regret having, is the one you didn’t have.
Comment by Amanda (March 4, 2008 @ 8:57 pm )
I had terriable morning sickness with both of my children. I would love to have more but I would feel too guilty. Amy I know where you are coming from about being sick. Day and night and it felt like forever! Although I have two wonderful children it was worth it but it is hard thinking about getting sick like that again.
Blessings,
Renee
Comment by Renee (March 4, 2008 @ 9:02 pm )
Jenifer, comment #68 - I was having problems at first as well, so I went his blog which summarized the talk. Here is the link:
http://voxpopnetwork.com/vision/2008/01/06/christian-birth-control-options/
Comment by Andrea B (March 4, 2008 @ 9:11 pm )
In regards to Mark Driscoll: I listened and liked a lot of the content, but tend to agree that Mark Driscoll has some strange ways of getting his point across. He was rude and unkind which are not qualities to be desired in a preacher. I think his technique is dangerous in that he seems to desire to please his crowd which is not the intent of proclaiming truth.
I too have had guilt in both directions but find it helpful to remind myself that whether I have 2 children or 10 it is the quality of the arrow in the quiver that concerns God. What’s the point (no pun intended) of dull arrows…they will have no impact. The calling we have in regards to our children is to ‘train them up in the way that they should go’. So when focusing on how to parent as opposed to how many to parent the amount may become clearer in our individual situations.
Like all matters it always come down to the heart.
Thanks Amy for pointing out the heart of the matter and not how this looks practically in each of our lives. You made your points beautifully!
Comment by mel (March 4, 2008 @ 9:17 pm )
I know you’ve had a lot of comments on this topic already but I needed to say thank you from the bottom of my heart. This is a beautiful post written in absolute love. I have struggled a LOT with stuff I’ve read written by other Christian women that keep telling me I’m doing something wrong not filling my house to overflowing with children. The fact of the matter is that my heart longs for more but my husbands doesn’t. I believe God can and will change his heart if and when it is right for us. I can also understand my husbands position. I am not 100% well and haven’t been for a couple of years. A lot of the burden for the children falls to him. I can’t see that right now the time is right for us to have more. Maybe it will never be. Or maybe one day the desire in my heart to work with orphaned children will come true and our time will be used to parent other children rather than our own. God created us all unique and uses us in different ways. He really is bigger than all of this.
This is my first visit to your blog and I came here through a mention on Biblical Womanhood. Blogging and meeting other bloggers has been such a blessing in my life these past 12 months or so.
Thank you again and bless you!!!
Comment by Lightening (March 4, 2008 @ 9:26 pm )
Incredible post. I come from the opposite end of the spectrum: I cannot have children unless I take medication designed to cause me to ovulate. I have taken great offense at the QF movement, because by their reasoning, I should have NO children. I KNOW that the Lord blessed me with the two children I have. I also know that were I to have more, I would not be a good parent, despite the guilt I feel from the QF movement for only having two.
Comment by Kim (March 4, 2008 @ 9:30 pm )
Thanks Andrea!
Comment by Jenifer (March 4, 2008 @ 9:48 pm )
I just had to join in the discussion here. I grew up in a family of 11 children and I loved it. When I was first married, I was very firm in my beliefs that you were not to use birth control and to just leave everything in the Lord’s hands. Well, I still believe we are to leave everything in the Lord’s hands, but I also have come to realize that we have to use the brains that God has given us. My mom has really tried to warn me that although right now I am busy (I have 5 kids 8 and under), that the mental toll with older kids is quite hard. That really hit me since right now even though I am busy, I still feel like I can handle things. But according to my mom, the stresses of teenagers and of being in your 50’s and still having 10 years at least of raising children is very tiring. My husband and I want to do the best job we can of raising our children to be young men and women who really love the Lord, and we feel like if we keep having children at the rate we are, that we will not have enough time or energy to fully train them. Anyways, that is my two cents. Wonderful post Amy!
Comment by Jo (March 4, 2008 @ 9:50 pm )
I, like so many others, want to say thank you.
I have recently come across some rather harsh posts regarding this issue on blogs I frequently visit.
I have been blessed with two children. To be honest, that is more than we “planned” on. My point of view has often been this: “Isn’t it great that God makes people different. Some people long for large families, some do not want any, and then there those in between.”
I do not think small or large families are wrong. I do not think those who do not want children are selfish nor those who want very large families.
I have been insensitive in comments (unintentionally) I am sure. I have asked “How do you it?” to parents with many children. I do not ask because I think they are crazy for having such a large family; I ask because it is so different from what I desire or what I can handle. “Better you than me” is compliment from my lips, because I admire that you are able to handle it. Because I respect that God gave you the ability and the desire for a large family.
To me, the comments made by those who think I am wrong for having a small family are no better than the comments made to them about having a large family. Both sides only hurt one another. They only make the division larger.
Do I feel convicted by the statements and Scriptures used? No. Not when I find myself calling out to God for strength to make it through the day with just two.
So, again, thank you for your post.
Thank you for showing love. Whether you or others believe I am wrong or not, thank you for not accusing and trying to condemn me for a sin that is not my own.
Comment by L (March 4, 2008 @ 9:54 pm )
Okay, where does anyone get the idea that they have X number of fertile years left, or that they’ll have X number of children, if they don’t put a stop to it? An honest question. No one is assured ANY more children, just because of the “current pattern of things.”
Also, children shouldn’t be viewed as commodities. God can bless people in many ways, but there is only one way that results in an eternal soul. I think we live in a society where children are just another part of the perfect American plan: college, marriage, job, home, kids, retirement… That’s where I, as a Christian, get my back up, I guess. For some, children are just another collection (even, “Let’s see how many we can collect”), and for others, children are just a part of “what you do.” I don’t believe either shows God’s mind on the matter.
Another thought: It seems I’ve come across people who say they’ll “let the Lord decide” the timing and spacing of their children, until the children start coming - too fast, too soon, too many, with too much difficulty. Please know that I am NOT referring to those exceptions where there are serious health issues, etc. I’m talking about the cases where the going simply starts getting tough.
No one should be making anyone feel like crap for their reproductive decisions (unless abortion or abortifacient methods are used - then we have a duty to our fellow Christians to turn them back from the error of their ways). That is not loving. However, when I can personally testify to God’s goodness and faithfulness in my life, especially concerning the trust we have placed in Him regarding our family size, and if I can really show what a blessing children are (even the dirty-faced, imperfect ones!), then I will shout it from the rooftops!
Comment by Sheila (March 4, 2008 @ 10:15 pm )
Just some thoughts:
I agree with something I heard Chip Ingram say, that every man’s quiver is a different size. For some this may be a couple children, for some, MANY! (not direct quote)
I also believe that God gives us limits (spiritual, mental, physical, in every area). He is the author of limits. It’s up to each couple to PRAYERFULLY consider how big their quiver should be. My husband’s philosophy of # of kids is this: He’s called to a certain ministry in his line of work. He’s called to be a father and husband. His family size should be one that allows him to be MAXIMALLY faithful to the various callings in his life.
Also, the Lord in his wisdom has placed each of us in a certain country, in a certain time, in certain places and societies, with various callings. Our family sizes will be different than our neighbors, and different than people who lived 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago.
We just CANNOT BE SELFISH in our family planning. Our culture wants convenience and comfort. Even Christians are swayed greatly by our culture, I think, in just having a family that’s convenient.
Here’s another thought: What are all these people doing about the call to care for orphans? If someone is having baby after baby after baby… what about adoption?
I’m not saying we are correct and that others are incorrect, I’m just sharing our PERSONAL convictions: We have had 2 biologically, and are DONE bringing children into the world. We are SURE. We will adopt the rest of our children internationally (we’re in the process of our first adoption). We cannot ignore the call to care for orphans, and we believe REALLY caring for an orphan means adoption. God doesn’t just meet our basic physical needs, which is why we believe we can’t just commit our lives to only giving financially, or periodic mission trips, but we must ADOPT, modeling the Father’s grace to us.
We have absolutely no desire to bring many children into the world when there are so many already in the world in desperate need. We don’t want spaces in our family to be taken up by more biological children and therefore IGNORE those suffering. We know the Lord has placed this on our hearts.
My challenge to ANY family is, WHAT WILL YOU DO TO HELP THE 143,000,000 CHILDREN ALREADY IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE A FAMILY?
I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on adoption.
Comment by FIRST TIME READER (March 4, 2008 @ 10:19 pm )
I just read through some more comments from women who have VERY hard pregnancies….
Why not ADOPT??!!!
I’m not trying to get on a high horse, I’m just trying to be a voice for the voiceless! I don’t believe that every single Christian will be called to adopt. But I DO STRONGLY believe that it is the duty of every Christian to STRONGLY CONSIDER adoption!
Comment by FIRST TIME READER (March 4, 2008 @ 10:22 pm )
I like the Catholic viewpoint….
Comment by Holly (March 4, 2008 @ 10:24 pm )
Great post Amy. I could add some comments from the barren crowd, but will keep them to myself today. Thanks for being honest!!!
Comment by Marci (March 4, 2008 @ 10:49 pm )
Labels are difficult. That’s why discussion is good. So to answer your question, Amy, no I don’t think you are “quiverfull”. But that is not a *bad* thing….I like your approach–much more thoughtful, not so cut and dry.
Comment by Andrea (March 4, 2008 @ 10:50 pm )
#72: “I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes… ”
Oh my, that is BAD theology! Please don’t let those statements get to you! If you ceased having children, there are no children that “would have been”, therefore, no souls that won’t be in Heaven because of not getting pregnant. The lives that “would have been” just don’t exist, if God didn’t bring them into the world! And if a life wasn’t created (by God, via human parents), then it can’t be prevented from being in Heaven. That’s just horrible theology–you shouldn’t let those kind of statements affect you.
And besides, how do those people know that that child will become a believer and go to Heaven someday? We have no guarantee that our children will trust Him as King.
OK, I’m done being frustrated at those bad teachers for now!
Comment by kendra (March 4, 2008 @ 10:52 pm )
Amy, what a thoughtful and well constructed post.
Also some great comments. I particularly appreciated “I am trusting the leadership of my husband” and “Each couple needs to sort out these things between each other and the Lord.”
For me, this is where we are at. We have three living little ones (11, 8 and 3), have had four miscarriages, and currently expecting again in May. I have laid my heart before Christ, and for me it boils down to this - trusting in the sovereignty of God, and the appointed headship of our house (my husband). Therefore, I am not quite sure yet what will happen after May, but my husband thus far is confident (after much prayer and seeking God on his part) that this will see our family completed.
And really, it is between my husband, myself and God.
I embroidered a cushion some years ago that says “marriage takes three - God, you and me”.
Thank you again. Thoughtful, gracious discussion is always a good prompt for people to reconsider/re-evaluate how we feel about this matter, or any matter.
Blessings
Mel
Comment by Mel (March 4, 2008 @ 10:53 pm )
Good post. I’ve enjoyed reading what you and everyone has had to say.
Comment by Becca (March 4, 2008 @ 11:00 pm )
Amen. I appreciate your balance and thoughtfulness on this topic that too many have let become a test of spirituality and fellowship.
Comment by Barbara H. (March 4, 2008 @ 11:06 pm )
#72: “I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes… ”
Yikes, yes that’s actually a Mormon doctrine, the idea that there are souls just out there waiting for bodies. But the only picture in scripture is God breathing life anew into a newly created body (i.e. Adam).
Comment by Sara (March 4, 2008 @ 11:08 pm )
I absolutely loved this post and am going to link to it from my blog as I find it to be the most refreshing and balanced view on this subject I have ever heard! I totally agree that it is wonderful to have large families and be open to children, but that making rules about babymaking for everyone to follow is foolish. There are so many circumstances that could cause God’s leading in this area to be different for different couples. I would much rather have my husband or myself sterilized than have abortions forced upon me if I was a woman in China (and yes, it does happen ALL THE TIME THERE!) In circumstances where it looks like my life is threatened or my kids will be neglected for a pregnancy we would do everything in our power (non-abortifacient means) to avoid getting pregnant.
This summer we will have had 3 kids in 4 years and while we love them dearly and love children, we haven’t yet decided if God would lead us to stop having children after a few more. My husband has shown love and care for me in the fact that he believes we need to avoid getting pregnant using non-abortive methods/timing/etc. for a year after the birth so the baby can nurse for a year and my body can rest. I appreciate his concern for me in this as I feel myself ovulating about 6-8 weeks after the birth (yes I ecologically breastfeed around the clock and on demand!) and am VERY fertile (I get pregnant when our kids turn one year whether we try or not). Nearly all of my grandparents and great-grandparents had 12-18 children and fertility runs rampant on both sides so I’m sure I could be one of those women who has that many and most 11 months apart, but I don’t think it would be fun or healthy as I suffer from bad morning sickness too!
On the other hand it’s hard for me to not be judgemental of friends who make “seemingly selfish” calls on how many kids they will or won’t have even though they are Christians. I have to remind myself that judging is wrong, whether I’m judging a friend for having 10 kids and being exhausted and dirt poor or whether I’m judging my sis-in-law for saying she’ll only have 2 even though she has plenty of money and easy pregnancies. I need to remember it’s between them and God and I just need to be faithful to what He’s called ME to do. Thanks for pointing out what truly important in light of Scripture!
Anonymous’ comment (#72) angers me as it sounds like very Mormon philosophy. Is this really being taught by Christian pastors? Anonymous, please don’t fear this teaching as it’s not Biblical!
“I have heard ministers say that by preventing a baby, we could be preventing eternal souls in Heaven, and that really scares me sometimes”
Tara’s comment (#74) was RIGHT ON!
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I need that grace. Without it, I am lost, no matter how many children I have. I cannot compare my family, or myself, to others. I do not have that liberty, even in Christ. The women I most admire are those that are not spouting what they believe about birth control, pro or con. They are quietly raising their children, loving their husbands, and serving their Lord, seemingly unconcerned about what others are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.”
Amen!
Thanks for another great post!
Comment by Mrs. Jo (March 4, 2008 @ 11:25 pm )
I love this post. Love all the comments. I think in todays time so many women are so confused…. to work or stay home,,,, if you work you are made to feel like you dont love your children like a woman who stays home. To homeschool or not…. same scenerio…. but if you do choose these things you seem by others to think you are better, and your children are too good to be with the other school children ( ive heard this comment far too much). And then this issue. Ive had a personal experience with this. Ive 5 children…. three of which are suprises from God… with in 2 1/2 years. For me it was almost too much both mentally and physically that after my 5th was born I would be pregnant within a few short months again. Plus I felt there was just not enough of me for the ones I had. So I had my tubes tied.
I think the two things in the Bible I think of when Im faced with scorns about this is that we are under grace not the letter of the law and God said to seek out our own salvation. Of course we can only get to heaven through Jesus but those things which God has not made clear we have to follow our own conviction without making judgement on others. Because even after having a tubal I still hear God speak to me and am still his child.
Comment by Amanda (March 4, 2008 @ 11:35 pm )
Oh Connie! You crack me up!
Oooooo girl. Now you’ve gone and stepped on toes!
Amy, you truly have the gift of eloquence when it comes to blogging on the most hostile issue in all of blogdom right now! Wonderful, moving post.
This is exactly how we feel about being open to children. We just are so over the label of “QF”. How sad is it that two letters can strike fear and anger into the heart of many believers. How is this advancing the Kingdom?
Honestly, I have been on both sides of this fence. For a short period of time I lost my head and went a little over the top concerning the issue. God graciously stopped me in my tracks and showed me my pious, idolatrous ways where children were concerned. And I do believe children can become an idol for some.
Children are a gift and a blessing. The Bible states it over and over, again and again. I think that fact is clear. But to be so dogmatic about something that it causes division is not, in fact, obeying the “trump” verse/command. QF folk talk a lot about dying to self. Well, in my humble opinion, sometimes dying to self means keeping your mouth shut when it might hurt another believer. And I’m talking to myself here too. While I am open to God’s blessings where children are concerned I can certainly love my neighbor at the same time.
Comment by Michelle (March 4, 2008 @ 11:59 pm )
Amy, I appreciated your post on this topic. I wanted to point out something about childbearing and the Orthodox Church - the Church that has been here since 33 A.D. Especially in the first thousand years of the Church, but even now, there are seasons in the year when married people did not “enjoy” one another. During the penitential seasons, Advent and Lent to name two familiar ones, abstaining from relations were, and I think are, important in teaching the body to be dominated by Christ, by the new creation. Just as abstaining from meat and dairy for a time and fasting regularly makes us more aware of our Lord and His Presence in us. All the abstaining and fasting teaches us how to discipline ourselves. Obviously, I suppose, that meant that children were generally born nine months from Christmas or Easter or summer months.
Those that advocate the full quiver, or any other teaching based on one or two scriptures, tend to forget that Scripture is not alone in its ability to teach us about how to be Christians. Those Scriptures went along with good Traditions that gave us the Life of the Church. Traditions like fasting that teach discipline. It is very easy to pick and chose verses, but unless you also understand the Life of the Church and Her Traditions that explain some of those Scriptures and why they were written, then you may very well be misusing Scripture and causing someone else to stumble, not to mention stumbling yourself.
I really enjoy your blog and I hope all goes well with your move to the country. We are moving at the end of this month and I don’t have half of my packing done yet! God bless you and yours!
Comment by Angela (March 4, 2008 @ 11:59 pm )
I had a friend who was a nutritionist and she told me that it takes a full year for a woman’s body to recover and completely heal itself after giving birth. This is part of how God made our bodies. We need to understand more of how we were created to understand what God is expecting of us.
Comment by maudie-mae