Why you might not want to do rentals: Tip #1
Sunday, Apr 20, 2008
We’ve been landlords since June 2004 when we bought our first (and last) rental units. There are two houses, split into seven units total: three units in one house, four in the other. Buying the rentals was all part of a scheme to start a different kind of life. We started another life alright, just not the one we imagined. This is our story.
If you’ve been following my blog, you know that Greg has always worked long hours and traveled extensively for his jobs. We wanted to leave this sort of life and begin a simpler one. By simple, I don’t mean the kind with paper umbrellas and sunsets, but rather, the kind that wasn’t so devoid of togetherness. We were always apart and working hard. Why not work hard together? We’ve never been afraid of hard work, but the stress of Greg’s traveling while I managed alone a bunch of babies and toddlers was a recipe for tension.
I often pick up the local real estate ad books whenever we travel. It’s my passion, and I like to oogle over how cheap the rest of the world lives in comparison to us in Florida. I was on this “let’s do rentals” bandwagon after a string of disappointments we encountered when trying to buy local businesses for our livelihood. [That is another story, but the short version is this: everyone lies so bad on their taxes.] In 2004, while traveling through Bristol, Virginia, we noticed that a person could actually make these downtown homes cashflow. Cashflow is the way you say that you won’t be upside down after expenses every month. Rentals do not cashflow in Florida after counting in taxes and insurance, unless you happened to buy the house in 1950. This is hard to do when you weren’t alive back then.
We spent our vacation staying up until 2 a.m. every morning fiddling with Excel spreadsheets. In June of 2004, we took the plunge and bought the two houses. It was to be the beginning. We looked at a dozen of so on the market and we chose the ones with the least structural problems. (Big joke coming later on about this.) This is the part where you might think we’re rich, but here is the part that I will tell you how we did it. We try to spend the most we can on appreciating assets, while getting by with the least possible that’s reasonable on depreciating assets. Your mileage may vary. Our two cars at the time wouldn’t fetch $1,000 bucks at an auction. Instead, we preferred to put our money into appreciating assets instead of depreciating ones. (That tidbit will make another great joke later on when it bites us hard, so remember it.) We paid $35,000 for the first house. It was about 2200 square feet and solid. This was almost half of the asking price and so ridiculous that the realtor and my husband were profoundly embarrassed to make the offer. I wasn’t. You can always ask. Some people pay this much for a vehicle, but I can tell you that their vehicle doesn’t make them money. Quite the opposite.
The plan was to continue buying rentals and move up there to manage them and rehab houses to sell. I have all these great ideas. Every day that Greg would get home from work, I’d say, “What do you think about this…?” It’s gotten so bad that my eldest son, to this day, answers for Greg with, “Oh brother. Here we go again.”
I’m getting ahead of myself here. The story is pretty funny now that time has passed, and if you are interested, I will tell you all about it as I have time. But with this entry comes my first tip for anyone looking at buying rentals as an investment: Don’t.
I actually think rentals are a great source of income. I’m not trying to contradict myself here. The thing is, a regular Joe isn’t able to make rentals cashflow without a ton of experience and know-how. Problem was, we were regular Joes, and the business wasn’t going to let us learn the ins and outs without some very hard knocks.
Turning a profit takes shrewd (as in clever, not dirty) business skills and some knowledge about the law. We had an attorney look over a settlement agreement that Greg wrote last week. He told Greg that it was well-written and asked him if he had a legal background or some formal education on the subject. “No,” he replied, “Just a lot of experience.”
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We’re renters (in FL) and I happen to KNOW that our landlords are taking a loss. It helps on their taxes and we’re the best renters they’ve ever had (even with a houseful of kids!), so they’re okay with it. But they sold all their other rentals and when we move out, this place will be updated at sold, too. So. . . yeah. . . owning rentals is always more money and hassle than anyone expects it to be.
Comment by TG (April 20, 2008 @ 4:22 pm )
A person that pays on time and doesn’t put cement in the toilet is a gold star tenant in my opinion. My standards have changed over the years.
Comment by Amy Scott (April 20, 2008 @ 4:44 pm )
Amen to this post. We had great plans of making it big in rentals. After a tenet forgot to take his medication and tried to literally blow up our house and another who thought paying rent was an option, we realized we were too much of a regular Joe to be in the business.
Comment by Anonymous (April 20, 2008 @ 5:00 pm )
Heh, blowing up the house? We haven’t had that one yet. Good one.
As for rent being an option, I don’t believe we’ve had one tenant who wasn’t insulted when we asked for rent. We’d learn later that even the circuit court judge expected us to run a welfare business, minus the part where we get taxpayers to foot the bill. We’d have to do that alone.
Comment by Amy Scott (April 20, 2008 @ 5:05 pm )
I think the grass is always greener, isn’t it? So many people would love to be rocket scientists and not landlords and are probably shaking their heads over your story. And yet there are so many like you, too, who really want to get out of the fast lane…
Comment by suburbancorrespondent (April 20, 2008 @ 5:24 pm )
We also are reaching for that ’simpler’ life. We are doing it in small steps. One of our latest steps was to purchase a cow. You might want to check out how we celebrated so that you can be ready to throw a ‘Have a Cow Party’ with your new neighbors when the time comes.
Party details.
And in case you want more party details:
Meet the Cow.
Comment by Shannon (April 20, 2008 @ 5:54 pm )
I’m with you on that one. We have rentals in FL, and I do NOT like being a landlady. There are some nice ones, but the yucky ones do not make it an even trade. Especially the ones that are bi-polar….or like to vacate the premises with Nazi symbols spray-painted on the walls and human “stuff” in the oven, need I go on? I think not….
Comment by Lisa K. (April 20, 2008 @ 6:34 pm )
Here, rentals are at a premium, and if you bought yours five or more years ago, you’re doing alright. If you buy now, well, probably you’d be cashflow negative. Our housing market, in the last ten years, has increased dramatically, like up to 400%. There are a lot of people very rich on paper because they bought two or more homes up until five years ago. Not so good for the first home buyers, now.
We’re currently renting, and may wait to buy. The thing is, the home is so expensive, and the market is not increasing like it was, so we would actually end up spening about five times as much as we are now, with no increase in the property value, so in real terms, we’d be making a huge loss. Five years ago, it didn’t matter if you made a risky investment in property, as it was bound to double pretty soon, and your equity increased dramatically.
They keep trying to push first home buyers into buying, but I don’t know if these people have added up the real cost if they market stays where it is or only increases very slowly. Big financial loss.
I’m sorry your rental thing didn’t work out for you….we are working on geting out of the rat race sometime….sometime….
I keep telling my engineer husband to invent something good. Maybe you can work on Greg to do the same. Something that will bring in a big, regular income.
For some reason my hubs seems to think I’m putting pressure on him.
Amy, praying that God will make a way for you through this, that you will be on your farm sooner than you think.
Valerie
Comment by Valerie (April 20, 2008 @ 8:45 pm )
You didn’t really have somebody put cement in your toilet, did you?
Comment by Jo (April 20, 2008 @ 10:25 pm )
You know it’s funny; everyone thinks that the way to financial freedom is via the same route that currently rich people got there. In 1998, everyone had gotten rich buying MSFT back in 1992 and thus plunged into the next dot-com “sure thing”–and you know how that turned out.
In 2005, many people were rich from their real estate holdings rising tenfold over 10 years (or thereabouts). Rich Dad books were flying off the shelves. I dreamed about taking the real estate plunge but didn’t–more out of laziness than a thoughtful decision. Quite providential as I’m sure I would have ended up in a situation similar to yours.
I’ll know exactly how the next round of independently wealthy people make their money… about 2 years AFTER their endeavors show fruit. That’s the hard part.
Your story is very common in the generalities, but you you tell it so well. I can’t wait for more. As a fellow reformed-homeschooling-travels-too-much-for-work-wannabe-homesteader, I look forward to see how you realize some of these dreams.
Finally not lurking anymore,
-Mike
Comment by Mike (April 21, 2008 @ 12:23 am )
It’s no better when you rent to family…we learned that lesson. I wanted to help out an aunt in need so we let her move in for peanuts (we just about broke even). She expected the world on a platter. Once, I sent my daughter down to ask her for a cup of sugar. Her reply, “Tell your mother I’m not a store.”
Comment by Michelle (April 21, 2008 @ 6:17 am )
Amy, you do tell it well, and I can’t wait to read the rest of the story.
Dear friends of mine, newlyweds since November, moved for the third time on Saturday. The first move was job-related, as the newly married husband got a terrific job shortly after the wedding, so they left their first apartment (which they had renovated, doing painting, fixing floors, etc.) and moved to a basement apartment in a new house in a city close to his work.
They were so excited about this, as the first apartment was on top of a store - the typical long, narrow layout with old, creaky hardwood floors. The second apartment was a basement apartment, but it had those big windows that make it appear above-ground. Lots of light, brand new EVERYTHING!
They weren’t there a week when the upstairs tenant moved in.
And that’s when the trouble started.
The guy must have been crazy. He was certainly on drugs. He signed a lease agreement that specified “no smoking”, and smoked all of the time. My friends could smell it in their cute little apartment, so they politely asked him to cease and desist. That made them his enemies, so he began to literally stomp around in the middle of the night. Like a bratty child: stomp, stomp, stomp.
It went from bad to worse, and as I told you, my friends moved.
The landlord begged them to stay. He went to court with them to try to get the judge to do something. You can’t say someone is smoking unless you have proof, and smelling it is not PROOF. You can’t say someone is threatening you unless you have proof, and three witnesses don’t count. It goes on…
Anyway, suffice it to say that the poor landlord is going back to court with more evidence, to try to get rid of this guy. He’s well known to the cops (don’t ask!) but Mr. Landlord fully expects the whole process to take months. He also fully expects the beautiful new apartment to be ruined.
He’s selling as soon as he gets rid of the guy. Doesn’t want to be a landlord any more. Go figure.
And this is in Canada, where we’re supposed to be polite!
Janet
Comment by Janet (April 21, 2008 @ 7:37 am )
Cement in the toilet? Nazi symbols on the wall? And, the oven thing… well, that’s just too much! Renters do these things??
About 15 years ago we were renters and my husband was transferred to another state. The landlords told us that we had to repaint the entire house on our dime as a condition of us leaving. We did it. Then, they did not give us our security deposit back because they said I didn’t clean the oven to their satisfaction. That after I had spent two days with my head in that oven and a can of EasyOff. You could have done surgery in that house it was so clean!
But, I’m not bitter.
After you finish writing your story, I think I’m going to be amazed at the depravity of man!
Comment by Lady Why (April 21, 2008 @ 8:50 am )
Great post! I know a few folks in this boat. Also “flipping” houses. One guy I know has 6 sitting vacant with FSBO sign in the yard. Ditto buying/selling businesses!! I admire the motivation, energy and determination it takes to succeed….just don’t have it myself!!! lol Again, great post–I look forward to the the rest of the story.
Comment by Lisa (April 21, 2008 @ 9:18 am )
We rented in CA while in Seminary. We paid $1100 a month for a 3/1 in the Valley from ‘01-’04. We gave her $3300 at move in (first, last and deposit) When we first moved in, the W/D were on the back patio just draining into the yard. (illegal) My dh had to plumb them into the sewer which involved going under the house into the 15″ crawlspace. (think dirt floor and black widows) The landlord bought a shed for the W/D, part of what she agreed to do,of course, she got it from across the valley and we had to pick it up with our minivan and then my husband had to build it himself. We had termites that swarmed in the Spring, (I mean you could not have an open pot on the stove or anywhere) and she took a long time (weeks) to get around to having someone look at it and then hired incompetent people, so we had termites every year. Then, the garbage man accidentally grabbed our chain link fence instead of the garbage can and drug it and bent it all out of shape. She was supposed to get it fixed and the city would reimburse her (of course, she did not want to do that!) The water heater was ‘red tagged” when we moved in as well. Never mind the fact that my dh was working FT and going to Seminary, he should have plenty of time to fix plumbing or whatever else goes wrong too, right? We moved out in ‘04 and she is now charging around $2000 for the same house, no improvements, no nothing. The sad part is, that is actually reasonable rent for that area, so people are willing to pay it. The house is worth between $500-$600,000, so you would think that you would take care of that large of an investment. BTW, this was a Christian landlord. We did get our deposit back, but had we not, I had a formal list of everything that we had done (at our expense) and the CA Housing code for tenants which she had violated multiple times…….
now we OWN a house in MO for a lot less money (and really no more repairs!) =)
Comment by Deb (April 21, 2008 @ 10:30 am )
We’re currently renting a lovely little home. With the market the way it is, I’m frankly a little afraid to buy, but our lease is up in July, so… Hmmm… We’re renting through a property management company, and they’ve been great. But I feel so bad for the guy who owns this house. It’s obvious he put a ton of time and energy into landscaping and keeping it up; his family lived here before a divorce. The neighbors told us that the first people he rented it to had pit bulls who tore up the yard, and you can see the evidence of where they chewed the outbuildings and the porch. When it rains hard, you can sometimes smell dog pee on the porch. Ugh. Apparently, they left in quite a hurry, leaving a ton of their stuff behind. The guy had to come out from California to fix things, and now he has a management company. We pay our rent through direct deposit, and we’ve done our own mulching and fertilzing of this awesome yard. I really hope he doesn’t raise the rent on us come July. Because of the housing market, rentals are going for crazy prices around here right now. Oh yeah, another little treat.. I discovered a digital scale and a sign that said “High Street” in the closet of my son’s room when we got here. ‘Nuf said. Poor homeowner. I can see how it’d be really tough to be a landlord.
Comment by Ellen (April 21, 2008 @ 10:45 am )
So here’s the money question: How do we hook up tenants who clean their ovens with landlords who will supply them with nice ovens to clean? It seems there is always one party unwilling to hold their word.
Janet, As my story goes on, you will see that the judge always sides on the tenant’s side. This is universal and there is no such thing as common sense and doing the right thing. This is the way the world works and the same reason why child molesters see the light of day.
Ellen, We actually LOWERED rents for tenants who paid on time. We sent out a letter offering a decrease in rent for paying on time, but nobody took us up on it. That is, nobody ever paid on time more than once in a row, so we never had a chance to lower the rent.
It is customary to raise rents at the end of the lease term.
Hm. I will talk about that in my next blog post.
Comment by Amy Scott (April 21, 2008 @ 11:02 am )
I don’t think our demise is due to market timing as much as it is not being knowledgable about the business we own.
That sounds like something I would say, Mike!
A day late and a dollar short and all that times ten.
We are not so far from our dream of walking away as it might seem. You have to know I’m all gloom and doom. I am only 32 and Greg is 39, and with six kids, I think we’re further “ahead” than we would be if we didn’t think this way and take the steps we did early on. The financial journey is not one I’ll write about until we walk away, because before then, it’s all just talk.
Comment by Amy Scott (April 21, 2008 @ 11:13 am )
Here’s the thing. I just don’t believe in “the simple life.” It doesn’t exist. At least, not here on this sin-stained earth. The “simple life” is a romantic construct of the human soul longing for heaven. Sweat, blood & tears, that’s what this life is. With the occasional moment of joy thrown in just to make the bitter pill palatable.
Do I sound doom n’ gloom? Yeah. Probably because we’re trying to sell our own home. In a down market. Grrrrr.
Comment by Elizabeth Esther (April 21, 2008 @ 11:28 am )
Totally agree, Elizabeth. Nothing should surprise us about how the world is going.
I wrote Amy an email about our “adventures” with renting and also being on the other end in rentals. Praise God, though, that our final home won’t ever go on the market and the value will never drop. What a God!
Comment by Cathy (April 21, 2008 @ 1:09 pm )
What do you think of network marketing? I was in a business with Arbonne for 2 years (working from home) and after 5 months I was making $7,800/month (although that isn’t typical). There’s no way we could make that kind of money doing anything else, neither dh or I have college degrees. But then I quit because I was sick of running what I called “an adult daycare”. I wonder everyday what our financial situation would be if I’d hung in there though. Network marketing DOES involve selling *shudder* which is the hardest part of it all. I dunno, this is such a hard issue.
Comment by Kristi (April 21, 2008 @ 2:30 pm )
Thanks for sharing your story! It helps to learn from you. (I look forward to seeing God through all of your circumstances.) Blessings!
Comment by Pam (April 21, 2008 @ 2:44 pm )
Thanks for sharing your story. My husband and I have the plan to rent houses and have tenants but we don’t have ‘experience’. Although his family rented out units all growing up and he saw how they ran things. It scares me that things could go so wrong, but then again we aren’t in it yet and our plans could change too
Comment by Reagan (April 21, 2008 @ 3:18 pm )
I probably shouldn’t even be posting considering my own rental experiences. I think I might be getting bitter :o) We are moving for the third time in 18 months all due to lame landlords. We have never ever paid late rent and take care of our space but we end up with very decpetive landlords who are cheap. The last two houses the ceilings have leaked or literally come down and both times they wanted to do a bandaid job. We could have taken them to court and would have won but we didn’t. I am wondering why we made that choice. Anyway I am really just ranting as I pack boxes with my stuff for the 3rd time……why can’t people just be who they say they are? When money is involved it makes people loopy.
Amy I’d be happy to rent one of your houses but we live no where near VA.
Comment by Mrs. M (April 21, 2008 @ 6:23 pm )
We don’t own rental property, but man-oh-man does this statement hit home with me. At least a couple of times a week, I’ll say to my beloved, “I’ve been thinking [insert brilliant thought here].” Invariably, Roger’s response is “Oh no. What will it cost and what will I have to do now?”
I’m hoping he counts my ideas as the cost of doing business and not as annoying as they seem when I first blurt them out.
Comment by Alison (April 21, 2008 @ 7:06 pm )
I am always a renter and a fussy one. I will only rent if the landlord or landlady is a friendly one. Always have a contract to protect myself, in case they ask me to move out without prior notice. So far so good, I take care their house like my own.
Comment by Stephanie Kok (April 22, 2008 @ 3:33 am )
We rented for a few years and had a wonderful landlord. He thought we were great, too. We always paid our rent on time and in full and took good care of the house. We only bothered him when something needed fixing. I spent a lot of time cleaning when we left, too. I still bump into him off and on and we still have a good relationship. The only reason we left was because kid #3 made the tiny apartment even more tiny. We bought my grandfather’s house from the family and have regretted the decision ever since. My husband really wishes we had stayed there (although with #6 coming in a month that would have been impossible!)
We have some friends who are landlords and we often wonder why in the world they don’t sell out, pay off the farm they live on and spend all the hours and hours that they have to put into their rentals into making the farm a going concern. But, it’s not our business, so….
We had considered renting our own home should we find that little “piece of Heaven” anytime soon, but reading the Scott’s trials and hearing our friends complain cured us of any illusions about renting our place! I’m glad the litigation mess is over and I will be praying that God’s schedule is much faster than what you are expecting. After all, there is dirt up there that needs gardens put in!!
Comment by Another Heather (April 22, 2008 @ 11:01 am )
For my next trick, er, post, I will tell you how winning in court doesn’t mean much. I will try to do this without turning the entire readership into a bunch of cynics. The world can only stand so many of us.
I think it’s great for the people on the top! I dunno, I don’t know enough about it to make a moral assessment, but I’m generally a libertarian in those sorts of things.
Elizabeth, Try not to confuse simple with easy. I think hard work is a good thing, which is why we both have like a zillion kids. Here’s the thing. Certain choices inevitably make our lives complicated and not God-centered.
One of those things is Greg’s work. It involves a lot of travel and a lot of hours. It was that way when he was a pastor, and it is still that way no matter what engineering job he works. The only difference is the pay.
I think dinners together and weekends doing our Saturday morning jobs (the kids hate it) and afternoon at the ballpark and Sundays at church are the things that make a good family life. I want to do all I can to keep us together, all the while fulfilling the financial obligations we all endure. What if there is a way to do that and stay together? I think it’s all about the choices we make. So often people blame the culture, the money, the whatever (which is sometimes very real, I’m learning), but often our state is due to the things we choose, like thinking we deserve two new vehicles and a McMansion. I’m just asking the questions. I think we should.
If a person makes say, $70,000 a year, can he live off of $35,000 and cut his working years in half? (Actually, it’d be less than half due to compounding interest.) Or should he reward himself with a vacation and a Prada bag (for his wife, ahem)? I know a lot of people don’t make that much, but enough people do that there should be some kind of movement away from this high-stress lifestyles we’re living. But, as you know, we have to consume, consume, consume.
I think we can and should glorify God in whatever situation we find ourselves in, but I also think it’s a good idea to better your situation when you can.
Comment by Amy Scott (April 22, 2008 @ 11:21 am )
I too, am full of ‘great ideas.’ My husband doesn’t let me act on many of them. I keep telling myself that this is probably a good thing.
Comment by Kendra (April 22, 2008 @ 1:01 pm )
Comment by Cathy (April 22, 2008 @ 2:01 pm )
Geez, I did it again. I tried to box your quote and still didn’t get it done correctly. I even looked back at your instructions. See what I mean about my plans going awry??!
Yeah, I really can spell “furthermore.” The last time I looked it up, it only had one “m.”
Comment by Cathy (April 22, 2008 @ 2:04 pm )
Cathy,
I’m not saying not to depend on God. I’m just saying that some of the situations we find ourselves in is not suffering for Jesus, but for our own stupidity. And still some of it, you just have no control over.
I was trying to relay a little bit of that when I told about our move being delayed. We did the right things (saved and lived below our means), and when it didn’t work out for us to move due to market conditions brought upon us by people who are being bailed out on my dime, we are just dealing with it.
If we always made perfect decisions, we still have the fact that He makes it rain on the just and the unjust. I’m not saying we made good decisions, just that we should do whatever we can to make those bad things that happen to us be the hand of God and not our own doing. Does that make any sense?
Comment by Amy Scott (April 22, 2008 @ 2:11 pm )
And praise God for grace and mercy when we do stupid things (like, say, buy rentals or something, I don’t know, I’m just saying).
Comment by Amy Scott (April 22, 2008 @ 2:13 pm )